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To: jo kus
The problem of seeing works as saving is that you then see Muslims as capable of being saved.
Jesus didn't seem to have a problem with Samaritans (they were often the "hero's" in His stories) or with Gentiles). I think the Spirit will not be inhibited if God wills to save a Muslim, despite his religious affiliation.

He revealed himself to them, he made no provision to "save" them in their work based religion and error. If you believe that those that do not know Christ can be saved then you do not think faith is at all necessary . If one can be saved without Christ, why did he bother to come at all? Could not God have just issued a general absolution?

Does this scripture count?

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Could you define grace and mercy for me?

Grace is a freely given gift from God that empowers a man/woman to have faith, love, and trust in God. It CAN be rendered ineffectual by man himself (2Co 6:1; Ga 2:21; Eph 3:7; Heb 2:9; Jas 4:6). It is given to sinful men that they may turn to the Lord. It is by grace that we are saved - because through God's gift of faith and love, we are able to respond to God's promptings of love and union.

Could we agree that it is undeserved merit?

Mercy is generally thought of a sympathy, kindness, forbearance (when justice might be demanded) and forgiveness. We, too, are commanded to have mercy upon our brothers and sisters, forgiving them there trespasses and being kind to them, even in the face of unkindness.

Could we agree one must be judged guilty to receive mercy?

1,771 posted on 01/19/2006 6:13:16 PM PST by RnMomof7 ("Sola Scriptura,Sola Christus,Sola Gratia,Sola Fide,Soli Deo Gloria)
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To: RnMomof7
If you believe that those that do not know Christ can be saved then you do not think faith is at all necessary . If one can be saved without Christ, why did he bother to come at all? Could not God have just issued a general absolution?

Of course faith is necessary. Faith in God. Some people will never know the story of Jesus Christ. Many were born before Christ. Are you saying all of those people are condemned to hell without a chance for salvation MERELY because they didn't even have a chance to know the historical person of Jesus of Nazareth?

Christ says we must abide in Him to be saved. His commandment is to love from within. A person who truly loves another selflessly DOES have Christ abiding within them - although they might not know anything about Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus was a historical person - but He also IS God. He is not limited to a particular time and location. The Logos, the Wisdom of God, comes to whom He will. A person who follows the Law written on their heart (Romans) has been spirtually circumcised BECAUSE of Christ. Islam will not save a single person. Hinduism. Buddhism. While some of these religions may prepare someone to receive the Spirit to enable him to love, it is ONLY through Christ that we are saved. There is no other person whom we are saved through - whether they know that person or not.

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God

Water baptism is the normative way of entering the Kingdom IF it is presented to a person in a visible form. But as St. Augustine said so many years ago, God is not limited by the sacraments. His Spirit can come upon whom He wills, even if the person is not water baptized. Normally, a person who has access to Christian teachings and the Gospel must be first baptised. But the Church also teaches a "baptism by desire" - the person would have been baptized had he access to the Church ministers, and "baptism by blood", a person's witness being sufficient that the Kingdom has come to that person.

Could we agree that it is undeserved merit?

Yes, I think that is a good definition of grace.

Could we agree one must be judged guilty to receive mercy?

Not necessarily. Mercy also means sympathy. A person doesn't need to be judged guilty of anything to receive sympathy.

Regards

1,785 posted on 01/20/2006 4:13:10 AM PST by jo kus
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