While Scripture often talks about rewards, it is NOT only relegated to this life!:
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he shall reward everyone according to their works. Matt 16:27
Rejoice ye in that day and leap for joy; for, behold, your reward [is] great in heaven, for their fathers treated the prophets in the same manner. Luke 6:23
(Regarding Mat 5:20) Ahhh exactly, we can never enter heaven based on our own righteousness, (our works, law keeping, church attendance etc) we enter only covered in the righteousness of Christ.
If that is not reading your theology into Scripture, I don’t know what is. Where does Matthew 5-7 mention ANYTHING about being covered in Christ’s righteousness? That is the most ridiculous thing I have heard! The ENTIRE SECTION talks about YOU! Not about Christ covering you! He talks about reaching fulfilling the meaning of the Law BY loving others! When we pray, when we fast, when we give alms…In our relationships with others, even our enemies. Where or where does Matthew mention ANYTHING about being covered with Christ’s righteousness??!!
Regarding the Rich Young Man, I didn’t say the man thought Jesus was the Savior, or was God. He asked Him, as a Teacher, to tell him what was needed to be saved. Considering Jesus was God (although the man didn’t know), we must take seriously the answer He gave the young man – to obey the commandments out of love. Of course he was asking what HE needed to do! WE ALL want to know what is necessary to be saved. I don’t see your distinction. Nor do I understand your discussion on “not knowing Jesus was God”. So what…He received God’s advice, didn’t he? Unfortunately, he didn’t become “perfect”.
The rich ruler wanted to know what he might need to do to be sure that he had not missed anything in his righteousness. Was there something that might prevent him from attaining everlasting life - life with God? Jesus struck a "fatal blow "to his theology and confidence. His did not understand righteousness .
Jesus did not REJECT that the commandments were necessary for salvation! In Mark’s Gospel, Jesus even says “HE LOVED HIM”. Doesn’t sound like this man was a Pharisee, a hypocrite that Jesus tells us to NOT emulate throughout the Gospels.
Jesus got to the heart of the matter and revealed a corrupted understanding of righteousness. He categorically stated that only God is good. To think of a human in the same terms as God is a lack of understanding of the holiness of God and the sinfulness of men . His standard was inadequate. IT WAS BASED ON HUMAN RIGHTEOUSNESS RATHER THAN GOD’S.
Quite frankly, you miss the point of the story. If it was about “earning” salvation, if Jesus wanted to condemn following the Law, now was His chance…JESUS HIMSELF asked the man if he obeyed the commandments, the MAN didn’t say “see, teacher, I am doing “x”, and “y”. He asked because the man desired to know what was God’s will. As a teacher of the Law, Jesus WAS in a position to respond to this legitimate question. Again, you are reading your theology into the Scriptures. Love is the key to understand Christ’s teachings, not about God vs. man’s righteousness…
Except Jesus saw something that perhaps the young man had never even considered, there is more to righteousness than keeping the law
Hardly. This is about putting Jesus first in our lives. Recall all of the verses in the Bible that talk about the rich and entering heaven? Do you know why? How can a rich man rely on Christ? He relies on himself. He has the means to place his trust in himself. Christ wants us to die to ourselves! We MUST if we are to love. Love means dying to ourselves for the sake of the other. You must know this, being married, right? How can we die to ourselves when we see ourselves as the center of the world?
Jesus told the young man he lacked something in spite of his law keeping . What he lacked was faith .
If he lacked faith, he wouldn’t obey the commandments out of love!!! The wicked do not obey the Law. Those who have no faith in God are foolish. There are too many such verses in the OT to even begin to quote them all. What the man lacked was the attitude of dedicating himself entirely to God. His priorities were out of balance, and it showed when asked to give them up. Money, not God, was where his heart was.
Jesus did not come for the righteous,He came for sinners. So why would he demand law keeping here?
Christ says not ONE jot of the Law will pass away. He DEMANDS we keep the Law – the “royal” law of love (James). If He is your king, He expects obedience to His commands. Do you obey your king or not?
James is speaking to saved men on how the world will see them. It is about being justified in the eyes of men
The ENTIRE NT is written to “saved” people. I don’t understand the difference here in James. James is talking about adding deeds of love to our faith – since they don’t come automatically.
It allows a man to think men can be saved on the basis of that work and not need Christ as their savior( ie. Muslims)
We already covered this ground. There is a difference between an action done out of self-righteousness (for wages) and the SAME action done out of love of God and neighbor. You should be able to tell the two apart when you examine yourself.
No where does Jesus say or imply that one is saved by works. The book of James was written to a converted church , not heathens seeking salvation . It tells them how their conversion is seen by the unsaved world . It is not about becoming saved or being saved. It is about the fruit of your salvation.
Nor did I! I have NEVER said we are saved by works ALONE! We are saved by faith AND works… Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
This addresses a hollow profession of faith , not a saving one . Can a hollow profession save him? NO, any more than works can save.This scripture says to the church that this faith is non existent , it is dead.
It addresses FAITH! There is no "regular" faith and "saving" faith mentioned in the Scritures... You seem very intent on combining “works” and “faith” into one thing called “saving faith” so as to keep “sola fide” intact. The problem is that sola fide does not consider love as necessary for salvation. Do you? If I have not love, will I enter heaven? If you say no, then faith is not alone
All of your follow-up verses say is that we cannot earn salvation and that faith is key to salvation. I have not disagreed with that. I am merely saying that our faith MUST be combined with good works of love, otherwise, as James said, our faith is dead. What good is worthless faith? As the Scriptures say over and over, a person can have faith in Christ, BUT may not love. He may do things that will not allow him to inherit heaven. He may be LOSE his salvation obtained through Baptism and the Spirit. To be seen as righteous in God’s eyes, we must continue to persevere, cooperating with God’s graces that enable us to love our neighbors.
Regards
These both talk about rewards for the saved not being saved. Saved is saved, rewards are rewards
(Regarding Mat 5:20) Ahhh exactly, we can never enter heaven based on our own righteousness, (our works, law keeping, church attendance etc) we enter only covered in the righteousness of Christ.
If that is not reading your theology into Scripture, I don’t know what is. Where does Matthew 5-7 mention ANYTHING about being covered in Christ’s righteousness? That is the most ridiculous thing I have heard! The ENTIRE SECTION talks about YOU! Not about Christ covering you! He talks about reaching fulfilling the meaning of the Law BY loving others! When we pray, when we fast, when we give alms…In our relationships with others, even our enemies. Where or where does Matthew mention ANYTHING about being covered with Christ’s righteousness??!!
Jesus, knowing the sinful man’s heart, knew he violated the 1st commandment “You shall have no other gods before me,” and pointed out his god. “Sell all and follow me.” The young mans man’s unwillingness to follow shows his fallen nature as opposed to his external “religious” activities. Jesus showed that the rich young ruler had not even begun to keep the commandments. His self-righteousness was only self-deception.
I paraphrased what scripture tells us about righteousness IN Christ. This young man did not have that
Jer.23:6 This is the name by which he will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness.
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Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
1Cr 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1Cr 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
1Cr 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption
Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Ephesians 4:22You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
When God looks at the elect He see the righteousness of His son, not the sinful men we are. Think of David having Jonathan's royal robe placed on Him. That robe offered the protection to the son of the King. People seeing it from afar knew he was the kings son.
Think of the 1st act of the father to the prodigal son, He ran and embraced Him and placed on Him a robe of honor.
Scripture tells us we have put on Christ, that we are IN Christ. We wear the righteousness of Christ as our robe from the father .
The Rich Young Man, I didn’t say the man thought Jesus was the Savior, or was God. He asked Him, as a Teacher, to tell him what was needed to be saved. Considering Jesus was God (although the man didn’t know), we must take seriously the answer He gave the young man – to obey the commandments out of love. Of course he was asking what HE needed to do! WE ALL want to know what is necessary to be saved. I don’t see your distinction. Nor do I understand your discussion on “not knowing Jesus was God”. So what…He received God’s advice, didn’t he? Unfortunately, he didn’t become “perfect”.
Can any man keep ALL THE COMMANDMENTS? if they could, would we need a savior? What did Paul say ?
Gal 3:24 — Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
The very purpose of the law is to show us we are sinners in need of a savior. No man could keep the law perfectly , Christ could and he kept it for us . That is why He could be the spotless lamb, the perfect substitute to appease the wrath of the Father.
The rich ruler wanted to know what he might need to do to be sure that he had not missed anything in his righteousness. Was there something that might prevent him from attaining everlasting life - life with God? Jesus struck a "fatal blow "to his theology and confidence. His did not understand righteousness .
Jesus did not REJECT that the commandments were necessary for salvation! In Mark’s Gospel, Jesus even says “HE LOVED HIM”. Doesn’t sound like this man was a Pharisee, a hypocrite that Jesus tells us to NOT emulate throughout the Gospels.
Of course Jesus loved him, that has nothing to do with the fact that the man believed he could be saved by his own righteousness. Did jesus run after him? Beg him to stay? Change the plan of salvation so that the young man could be admitted to His fellowship by law keeping?
Jesus got to the heart of the matter and revealed a corrupted understanding of righteousness. He categorically stated that only God is good. To think of a human in the same terms as God is a lack of understanding of the holiness of God and the sinfulness of men . His standard was inadequate. IT WAS BASED ON HUMAN RIGHTEOUSNESS RATHER THAN GOD’S.
Quite frankly, you miss the point of the story. If it was about “earning” salvation, if Jesus wanted to condemn following the Law, now was His chance…JESUS HIMSELF asked the man if he obeyed the commandments, the MAN didn’t say “see, teacher, I am doing “x”, and “y”. He asked because the man desired to know what was God’s will. As a teacher of the Law, Jesus WAS in a position to respond to this legitimate question. Again, you are reading your theology into the Scriptures. Love is the key to understand Christ’s teachings, not about God vs. man’s righteousness…
Mans love or Gods love? Can a man without the Holy Spirit love as God loves? What was Gods will in this? Was law keeping sufficient? Was temple attendance sufficient? Was the issue love or was it doing self serving works? Was it that He did not know God at all and he could not recognize Him when he stood in his presence?
Except Jesus saw something that perhaps the young man had never even considered, there is more to righteousness than keeping the law
Hardly. This is about putting Jesus first in our lives. Recall all of the verses in the Bible that talk about the rich and entering heaven? Do you know why? How can a rich man rely on Christ? He relies on himself.
You mean like doing good works? Participating in rituals in the temple? Like believing that a man can generate God pleasing love in a corrupt heart? That kind of self reliance?
He has the means to place his trust in himself. Christ wants us to die to ourselves! We MUST if we are to love. Love means dying to ourselves for the sake of the other. You must know this, being married, right? How can we die to ourselves when we see ourselves as the center of the world?
If you can show me a scripture that a man is capable of self generated love that will please God I would be interested in that. Can a man have the Love of Christ come from a corrupt heart?
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
Eph 3:21 Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Jesus told the young man he lacked something in spite of his law keeping . What he lacked was faith . If he lacked faith, he wouldn’t obey the commandments out of love!!! The wicked do not obey the Law.
No man can obey the law. Self generated love is always self serving. it seeks its own rewards. The commandments reflect the holiness of God that no man can measure up to.
Those who have no faith in God are foolish. There are too many such verses in the OT to even begin to quote them all.
The question is , is it the mans self generated faith or the faith given by the indwelling Holy Spirit ? What is foolish?
1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Phl 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him
.Phl 1:29 For unto you] it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Act 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. 16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
We are not looking at human hope or human faith .. but at a supernatural faith brought by God to the man . This is not faith the train will be on time or that the sun will rise in the morning ... This is a supernatural faith, to believe what others with human faith deny.
1Cr 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
What the man lacked was the attitude of dedicating himself entirely to God.
He did not even KNOW God how could he be dedicated to Him? He lived a life of self assurance, his money and his law keeping were his gods. That was what he was dedicated to
His priorities were out of balance, and it showed when asked to give them up. Money, not God, was where his heart was.
Money WAS HIS GOD .It was where he looked for assurance and safety . Hs priorities were exactly the priorities of the unsaved man .
Jesus did not come for the righteous,He came for sinners. So why would he demand law keeping here?
Christ says not ONE jot of the Law will pass away.
Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
Christ did not come to destroy or to abolish the law or the Prophets. Every jot and tittle is still in effect, but Jesus makes it very clear that what He came to do, is to FULFILL them, because we never can .
The saved are no longer judged by the Law. Christ fulfilled that law for us. But that law still stands to do as it did for Paul, show him he is a sinner in need of a Savior
Romans 8:1-2 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death"
A man that plans to be saved by keeping that law had best read your favorite scripture author :)
James 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all".
In other words, if we plan to be saved by keeping the old testament laws, we better keep all of them, or we are lost.
No man can keep the law perfectly so men still need a Saviour. The purpose of the law was to point men to Christ.
He DEMANDS we keep the Law – the “royal” law of love (James). If He is your king, He expects obedience to His commands. Do you obey your king or not?
Do YOU ?
Matthew 22:34-40 But when the Pharisees heard that He had put the Sadducees to silence, they gathered themselves together. And one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" And He said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."
Can YOU keep this law? Can YOU obey every one of them perfectly? Can you love God with ALL YOUR HEART? ALL YOUR SOUL ? ALL YOUR MIND ? 24 hours a day , 7 days a week. 365 days a year PERFECTLY? Do you ever wonder whats for dinner? Do you ever get angry with your brother? Your mind is not on God at that moment. Can YOU keep that law?
Do you really love your neighbor as much as yourself? If you love yourself at all then you can not be loving God with all your heart because some of it is filled with self love.
All of us have a powerful instinct of self-preservation and self-fulfillment. We all want to be happy. That is self love not the love of God demanded here. But I do know one that kept this law, and he took my sinful self love to the cross and paid for it
James is speaking to saved men on how the world will see them. It is about being justified in the eyes of men
The ENTIRE NT is written to “saved” people. I don’t understand the difference here in James. James is talking about adding deeds of love to our faith – since they don’t come automatically.
All the letters are to the church ( the saved.. Acts is a historical account as are the Gospels. (Many will say te gospels are actually OT as they are the account before the cross, before grace and mercy and redemption by Christ. The difference is that the letters were not written to tell the church how to be saved, they were already saved, it was doctrinal teachings and how to live the Christian life.
It allows a man to think men can be saved on the basis of that work and not need Christ as their savior( ie. Muslims)
We already covered this ground. There is a difference between an action done out of self-righteousness (for wages) and the SAME action done out of love of God and neighbor. You should be able to tell the two apart when you examine yourself.
So men are not saved by Christ or His righteousness but by " their love ", could I have some scripture that love saves and not Christ?
No where does Jesus say or imply that one is saved by works. The book of James was written to a converted church , not heathens seeking salvation . It tells them how their conversion is seen by the unsaved world . It is not about becoming saved or being saved. It is about the fruit of your salvation.
Nor did I! I have NEVER said we are saved by works ALONE! We are saved by faith AND works… Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Were they showing all those saving works to God or each other? Did God need to SEE their works to know their hearts ?
This addresses a hollow profession of faith , not a saving one . Can a hollow profession save him? NO, any more than works can save.This scripture says to the church that this faith is non existent , it is dead.
It addresses FAITH! There is no "regular" faith and "saving" faith mentioned in the Scritures...
I share with you Pinks thoughts on this
There are those who have a faith which is so like that which is saving as they themselves may take it to be the very same, and others too may deem it sufficient, yea, even others who have the spirit of discernment. Simon Magus is a case in point. Of him it is written,"Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip" (Acts 8:13).
Such a faith had he, and so expressed it, that Philip took him to he a genuine Christian, and admitted him to those privileges which are peculiar to them. Yet, a little later, the apostle Peter said to him,
"Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God... I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity" (Acts 8:21, 23).Studies on Saving faith
You seem very intent on combining “works” and “faith” into one thing called “saving faith” so as to keep “sola fide” intact. The problem is that sola fide does not consider love as necessary for salvation. Do you? If I have not love, will I enter heaven? If you say no, then faith is not alone
Quite the contrary it counts the Love of Christ as he hung on that cross paying the debt we could not pay as primary not our own self generated self centered self serving love as saving anyone, least of all our selves.
You have a doctrine of works built on one scripture. You have chosen to ignore all the passages on faith that it should be read with. There is a day when we realize that our self generated faith can never save us, our works can never save us, our love can never save us . Then we will know for sure that Christ has, because man can never save himself. That then brings assurance that he has completed what we can not even start. He is the author and finisher of our faith . As long as our salvation rests on us and our faith and our love and our works men will never know for sure , they will die in fear ..