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To: annalex
I understand that the Pats vs. Broncos analogy is imperfect, but it does the job insofar as it shows that when, -- either for reasons of insufficient power (Pats) or infinite love (God), -- the outcome Pats or God did not wish for, happen, then you cannot say that Pats, or God, caused the outcome.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I'm following you. Are you saying that if, for whatever reason He had, God wanted the Pats to win, but since they didn't, then God couldn't have caused the loss?

BTW, I fully believe that God fixes football games. Take that Steeler game. (The Steelers are my favorite team outside of my home team [Rams].) Remember that 4th quarter INTERCEPTION by Troy Palamuanoluaamonoa (The HAIR guy!)? When the judges were unjust, the people of Steeler nation cried out to the Lord, "Please deliver us!". And God heard their cries and was concerned, and took pity on them. So God sent a plague of chokenness upon Mike Vanderjagt, that he might sorely miss his intended path. And so it was that he strayed to the right and thus gave up his reward. The Lord, being always faithful, delivered His people. :)

1,715 posted on 01/18/2006 1:34:01 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
BTW, I fully believe that God fixes football games...

Good one!!! After watching both AFC games, the truth bears this out!

regards

1,726 posted on 01/18/2006 8:52:29 AM PST by jo kus
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To: Forest Keeper
God wanted the Pats to win, but since they didn't, then God couldn't have caused the loss?

No, I am not explaining God with Pats either by likening God to Pats or by making God a Pats' fan. I am merely making a comment about the nature of causation, and I make use of the Pats who cannot be said to cause their own defeat. Or at least properly you cannot. You can say that a particular fumble "caused" the defeat, for simplicity of language, but it was not willful causation. Beyond that, God has nothing to do with the Pats. God "causes" evil only in the sense that He allows some free agent to cause it in order to preserve that free agent's freedom. In St. Augustine's formulation, God does not will or cause evil, but it allows evil to happen so that to prevent a greater evil, which He, in His infinite wisdom, perceives.

1,729 posted on 01/18/2006 12:12:39 PM PST by annalex
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