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To: kosta50
It is entirely possible that we do not understand the word "elect" the same way, but -- be it as it may -- could you explain then how is it that we have offended God willingly if we have no free will? And if we have offeneded God unwillingly, why is it an offense? Perhpas you can also explain how can God, Who is not subject to passion, be offended by unworthy scum (I believe that's close to how Calcinists see humanity)?

Sure,
Men have a free will that was bound by the sin of Adam. After the fall men still have a free will,but they will never choose "good" they will instead choose between the lesser of 2 evils, they will never choose to do "good " or be "good" ( as God calls good not men). So men have a "free" will that is in bondage to sin, men always serve their master, in this case the unsaved man has sin as his master.
I have heard it said by an evangelical Christian that before he was saved sin was never a "problem" to him, he just did it without a concern or guilt. That is the unregenerate, will at work.
Men will always choose according to his nature, an unregenerate mans nature will never desire to come to God .

That bondage must be broken by Gods grace before a man will have the ability to truly repent that sin and believe in Christ.

Paul expresses it like this

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

He notes the change with conversion

Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience::3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? .Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things [is] death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

So the unregenerate man can choose, but he will never chose Christ, he is a slave to his sin nature.

1,671 posted on 01/16/2006 12:59:13 PM PST by RnMomof7 ("Sola Scriptura,Sola Christus,Sola Gratia,Sola Fide,Soli Deo Gloria)
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To: RnMomof7

You have reminded me to look for a quote from Pink regarding "Two Fold Working of the Holy Spirit".


1,673 posted on 01/16/2006 1:06:10 PM PST by Dahlseide (TULIP)
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To: RnMomof7

momof7 (bless 'em all)

Found it. Below Pink tells of the sense in which some seek God but the last line is:

They still lacked the principle of regeneration!

Shortened version below from Pinks commentary on Hebrews.

2. The Spirit causes men to turn naturally toward the Redeemer.

Self-love is the predominant principle in the natural man: he loves himself more than he loves God; it is this which lies at the root of depravity and sin. Now when a man’s conscience is convicted so that he perceives his need of a physician, and recognizes that happiness comes from Christ, such good news appeals to his self-love. Satan, who knows human nature so well was right when he said, "skin for skin yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life" (Job 2:4). Make the self-love of the natural man conscious of the wrath of God, and he is ready to "accept Christ", or do anything else which the preacher bids him; yet that is only the workings of nature, he is still unregenerate.

An enlightened understanding, moved by self-love, is prepared to take up Divine duties never practiced before, yea, to walk in the commandments of God. This was demonstrated plainly at Sinai. When Jehovah appeared before Israel in His awesome majesty, and their conscience was smitten by His manifested holiness, they said to Moses, "Go thou near, and hear all that the Lord our God shall say; and speak thou unto us all that the Lord our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear and do". They were prepared to receive and obey the Lord’s statutes. Yet mark what God said of them, "Oh, that there were such a heart in them, that they would fear Me, and keep all My commandments always". They still lacked the principle of regeneration!



1,675 posted on 01/16/2006 1:26:43 PM PST by Dahlseide (TULIP)
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To: RnMomof7

Tank you Mom, as always. You have a talent to explain things. Much obliged. I gather from this that, accroding to the beliefs of the Reformed Christinas, man is either enslaved by sin or by righteousness, but never free. Not only do you explain more clearly the belief of the Reformed, but our differences as well. Thanks again.


1,681 posted on 01/16/2006 6:18:31 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: RnMomof7
Hi 'Mom'

You know that Rom.6:16 is referring to the choice that a saved man makes to either stay in the Spirit or in the Flesh?

So the regenerate man does make choices between God and the Flesh by 'yielding' to either one or the other (two natures).

If this were not the case then you are left with a saved man either not sinning again or God being responsible for his sinning.

This is the view that that L.S. Chafer taught.

(I know,I know he wasn't a real Calvinist!) :>)

As for saving grace, if God initiates and reveals Himself, why cannot man freely either respond or reject the light shown to him. (Jn.3)

Regeneration does not precede faith but is the result of it and faith is what man must do both to be saved (accept the gift) and in growing up (yielding)

We walk by faith, not by sight.(2Cor.5:7)

The Jews that did not enter the land did not do so because they did not mix the promises of God with their faith (Heb.4:2)

1,800 posted on 01/20/2006 2:17:50 PM PST by fortheDeclaration (Gal. 4:16)
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