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To: kosta50; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe; jo kus; annalex
If in all the length of my #1477 I was ignoring many of your points then I do apologize and will try again. :)

(1) that the concept of sin is meaningless in the predestined world of your theology, in which God is the author and the cause of Adam's sin as much as He is of yours and mine.

I have always said that God is not the author of evil because it is not in His nature, but that He allows evil to happen for His own purposes. Sin is very meaningful. I have also said that in a sense God's omissions could be considered "causal" because of His authority (the betrayal of Judas).

I make a distinction between causation and authorship. God was not the source of the evil in Judas because we are clearly told that satan entered into him and prompted him to the betrayal. God could have stopped this, but He didn't (thank God for me!). Therefore, in a sense, God caused the betrayal to happen by not preventing it, as He was the only one who could have, but He was certainly not the cause of the evil itself, satan was.

(2) that, according to your theology, we are not to be judged according to our deeds (Mat 16:27), as the Scripture clearly states, but divinely preordained to heaven or hell. Your beliefs hold that, just as no amount of good works glorifying God can benefit your salvation, no amount of evil can condemn you, and send you to hell. In that case, everyone's is God's "elect." Just the roles are opposite!

I believe that we will all stand before God and give an account for our deeds, and that we will thereby receive our reward IN Heaven, not TO Heaven. (Matt. 16:27)

I agree that good works do not benefit our salvation in terms of earning it, but I would say that good works are a part of a saved person's life. It is in our new nature to do good works, so a saved person will do them. That leads to not everyone being elect, because the unsaved cannot do good works out of a love for God (new nature), which makes those works "count". I know there must be some Catholics who will throw me a bone on this one! :)

As for the evil, I'll just repeat that yes, there is enough evil I could do that would cost me my salvation, but that if my salvation was real, God promised me He wouldn't let that happen because He keeps His own.

(3) If God is the author of everything good and evil then repentance, of which the Bible is full, is a meaningless "ritual". Since God already knows how you feel, and since everything you do is done because you are only doing God's will, repentance becomes a nonsense.

Please see answer to (1). In addition, I do not do only God's will. I do what Paul did:

Rom. 7:15-20 : "15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. "

(4) If everything was preordained, from the beginning and is preprogrammed until the end, why did Christ die for the unrighteous when the unrighteous are unrighteous by God's hands? In this case God is redeeming us from Himself!

Please see answer to (1). Christ died for us because He loves us. He redeems our sin, which is not a part of God.

(5) Thus the redemption becomes an oxymoron, because humanity has been prepackaged in an inflexible and rigid, even morbid Reformed choreography of God's Plan (never did find that word in Scripture).

It all depends on from whose point of view you are considering. From our POV, it is all very exciting because we do not know the future or any of the "prepackaging". Much of what is in truth inflexible and rigid is unknown to us and very much in play.

From God's POV, I have asked myself: "If God already knows everything that's going to happen, then why get out of bed in the morning?" To me, it is one of God's beautiful mysteries. I can't explain it. :)

I'm not sure to which word you are referring to having not found in scripture. For any given verses, there are many words in the Bible (that you use) that may not be in mine, and vice-versa. However, I'd bet that in many cases we would agree as to the meaning of the given verse.

(6) What God set out to do, He has already accomplished. God is not building new worlds. His job is done: because He is here and yesterday and at the end of times all at once. Surely His plan stands finished at the end of times. I am not changing perspectives, but you seem to be confusing His eternal nature with our temporal world.

I did answer you on this, but maybe I misunderstood what you were getting at. I agreed that God completed the part of His plan involving dying on the cross for sins. I meant to say that I think that is only part of God's "whole existence thing" plan. From our POV, there is still the future. I won't quibble that from God's POV everything is already a done deal. I think I was confused that you said it though, because that supports my contention that God's plan does not change. But, as I said, maybe I misunderstood or confused what you were saying with that of other posters. If so, then I am sorry. I'm not sure what you mean by my "confusing His eternal nature with our temporal world".

(7) And if God is involved in our lives I beg to know why (from your Protestant point of view). He preordained what will be and nothing will change (because it's perfect as you say), so God is rendered less than omnipotent by being subject to necessity!

Oh, is this what you meant above? OK. I just meant that God is involved in our lives from our POV. Again, I won't quibble with you on the "how does God transcend time" thing. If you want to say that from God's POV that everything is already a done deal because He simultaneously exists in all time, I'm not really in a position to argue with you from a full knowledge of the actual truth about that.

I honestly think you are splitting hairs by saying that I think God is less than omnipotent because He is constrained and subject to His own plan! I have argued that since God's plan is perfect that it won't need to change from our POV. Because His plan is perfect, it shows His omnipotence.

If I understand you correctly, I get confused by your arguments that on the one hand God's plan can change, but on the other hand God's plan is already done.

(8) You pray because you don't know, but why not just resign yourself to saying that whatever happens to me is what God decided -- it is merciful and just, for mercy will triumph over judgment (Jam 2:13). If everything has been predetermined, each step and each word we make and utter, why would He be in our lives?

You see, there is a big contradiction in what you are saying: God has preordained everything, yet He intervenes in our lives?

I pray because I know God wants me to, and it is very beneficial to me in my life here on earth. I'm fully aware that I'm not going to get everything I pray for, which is partly why I always pray for God's (preordained) will. The other part is what if I accidentally pray for something that would actually harm me. I'd rather have God know that (in advance) and turn me down flat for my own good. :)

As to why He would be in our lives if everything is already predetermined, that goes back to the earlier perspective arguments and my earlier admission to not knowing this mystery of God. I know with all my heart that for me, God intervenes in my life every day. Amen!

Take that pitiful man, Pat Robertson, for example -- his latest "pearl" is that God is punishing Ariel Sharon for selling Israel (because Israel is His land)! ... But, I must wonder, on whose account and by whose will is Ariel Sharon selling Israel that he is being punished when God, according to you and your cohorts, is in full control of Mr. Sharon -- and, by the same "logic" -- Mr. Sharon is doing "God's" work by selling Israel, according to the Reformed theology that is.

WHOA! I don't remember signing up as a defender of Pat Robertson. LOL! I think he gets into almost all of his trouble, not because what he is thinking is completely baseless, but that his political and diplomatic instincts are so poor. I've seen him do it a dozen times on TV. He says something and I answer back "Pat, you know they're going to kill you for that, why did you say it?" Too funny.

But, back to what you were talking about. I would refer back to my causation/authorship distinction. If what Sharon is doing is sin (and I don't know) then God did not author it, but allowed it to happen for His purpose. If what Sharon is doing is good, then God caused it and authored it. Nobody I know is saying that Sharon's stroke is a punishment from God; for my part, I would never be so presumptuous.

I infer from the totality of your paragraph that you think I believe that all that actions are "God's work" because I claim that God is in control of everything. So, if Sharon is selling Israel, then that is God's work. You then seem to imply that this idea is inconsistent with God punishing him for it, since God is the one who really did it. There is no contradiction at all, and I think you are splitting hairs again by trying to show God as authoring "badness" or evil.

God uses bad occurrences to further His plan and glorify Himself. When I commit a certain sin, God might directly punish me. God could have prevented me from committing the sin, but He didn't. So, is it fair for Him to punish me? Absolutely. God punishes me because He loves me, and it was I who chose to sin. I, hopefully, will learn from the punishment. This is God's plan.

Well, even if you think my answers are lousy, you have to give me that I tried! :) God bless.

1,640 posted on 01/16/2006 2:31:50 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
in a sense, God caused the betrayal to happen by not preventing it

I think it is casuistry. It is like saying that the Patriots caused their own defeat by not preventing the Broncos to win. It is muddled logic.

1,645 posted on 01/16/2006 3:00:11 AM PST by annalex
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To: Forest Keeper; Cronos
Dear FK, in my previous reply I said you ignored my earlier questions. That was before I got to your answers. Apologies. Your answers are not lousy and your love for God is genuine.

I am not sure where you are in the large Protestant spectrum of individualized beliefs, so I cannot with certainty know what you believe unless you specifically state it. And sometimes your statements raise more questions. So, this is nothing personal. :-)

I have to take your word for it when you say that in your version of the predetermined world God is not the author of evil, yet He allows the evil to exist. That much is obvious; believe it or not the Apostolic Church teaches that too! :-), but for a different reason!

So, whence came the evil? You surely must believe that God, who is the source and cause of everything and all, created Satan. Then, how did Satan become evil? By his disobedience to God, or by God's desire?

I would wager, unless you deny this too, that you believe that God created Satan good at first, with the intention that he become evil. Thus, you are contradicting yourself.

Thus, the Protestant error begins at the very beginning. And, once you start with an error, it just keeps multiplying. No matter how you turn and twist and try to wiggle out of it, as long as you have convinced yourself that everything is rigidly preordained, you are stuck.

You keep saying God's point of view (POV) and our POV. If God is in complete control, there is no such thing as our POV. Don't you see the trap? By denying the free will, the whole of Creation, man's fall from grace, sin, repentance, redemption, the Lord's suffering etc. lose their purpose and meaning as they are simply keystrokes on God's keyboard.

Not only is the beginning and the end known, but each keystroke in between the beginning and the end is determined in the Protestant theology. God is subject to His own Plan and not even He can change it! That is very much subjecting the omnipotent God to His own Plan!

God is perfectly free, so how can He be subject to His own plan? You can accept that, as you accept that He allows evil, but you do not accept that He gave us free will to choose, that He does not allow us to reciprocate His love freely!?

This you do dsipute thet fact that the Bible shows that God does change His mind (Gen 6:6), either on His own or in response to our repentance (numerous exmaples), which I mentioned earlier, and which you refuse to acknowledge.

I said that God's plan is accomplished because God does not exist in time. That means the beginning and the end are known; heave on hell. His Plan is to save fallen humanity. We are faced with two choices: accept God's love and follow Him, or reject God's love and give in to evil. If they are not choices, then why go through the charade? Why start a chess game if we already know who wins and who loses? Why start anything if the outcome is known unless the outcome is conditional on more than just fate?

As I said earlier, the Bible is replete with references to instances where our lives and our destines are changed through God's merficul intercession based on what we do through faith in God.

In order for us to have faith in God we must accept His love. His love is not forced upon us, because a forced love is no love; everyone understands that, even the Protestants :-).

Those who reject God's love, or who don't know Christ, may still live a "rigtheous" life with charity and humanitarian work as they continue to sin. The only difference between us, who believe, and those who don't is that they will not willingly repent of their sins but mistakenly think that they are "good" because somehow their "good works" cancel their sin.

You also make a mistake of believing that somehow out "nature" changes when we accept Christ. This is not a David Copperfield magic show -- click, and you become a dove! Our nature does not change. Our heart softens, but we continue to live in flesh, we continue to be tempted, we continue to be subject to Satan, we continue to doubt, we continue to sin; our nature is such that we have a propensity to sin as long as we live; our nature is mortal. It makes no difference how much we believe, everyone dies.

1,658 posted on 01/16/2006 9:01:59 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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