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To: kosta50; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD
[Reversing the order of your post] "Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory" [2 Tim 2:10]

You interpret this to mean that other than the elect are saved. Paul had assurance in his own salvation. He did not have assurance in the salvation of others in general because he did not know the names already written in the Book of Life. He is saying here that he is suffering on behalf of the elect, many of whom he does not know, that they might also in the future obtain the salvation that Paul already knows he has.

We say that we are not born with salvation (only the predestination of it), but that there is a point in the life of every elect that salvation occurs. For Paul that point was in the past, but he knew that for many elect who were then alive, that point had not been reached yet. Therefore, he wished to encourage these people before they obtained the salvation Paul already had.

This is not a subject of how you "feel." Where does it say in Scriptures that only the "elect" are saved?

In addition to Dr. Eckleburg's Romans verse in 1546, which is good by itself, I would simply add:

1 Peter 1:1-2 : "1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

It appears Peter may actually agree with us. :) You have to admit that this letter was written to a Christian (I would say saved) audience, and to admit to the other scripture linking obedience to salvation. According to the verse, the elect are chosen by God to obey, not others (i.e. if you say that God "chose" other than the elect to obey, you deny free choice). Other than the elect will not obey. Only those who obey are saved. Therefore, only the elect are chosen to be saved.

1,634 posted on 01/15/2006 11:24:17 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; Cronos; jo kus; annalex; Bohemund
Your example does not say that only the "elect" are saved. The elect in this case are, in the context of 1 Peter, especially Chapter 4, those who are about to suffer Roman persecutions and death and the Apostle is encouraging them to face what they are about to face with faith, to "rejoice, inasmuch as you are partakers of Christ's sufferings" (1 Pet 4:13)

The message is that "If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye" (4:14). And then he adds "if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" (4:18).

So, here is another example that the "elect" are the (s)elect few (for not all Christians suffered) who do what others are not called to do, and are considered Christian heroes (martyrs and saints).

Is is also clear from verse 18 that even the righteous are not automatically saved, but "scarcely" (the Greek word is molis , which means "with difficulty" -- the difficulty comes from our weakness in cooperating with God; it certainly does not represent difficulty for God!).

Although we are no longer perscuted for our faith (few exceptions in the world notwithstanding), our salvation remains a struggle on our part, a process of conforming to the image of Christ, and not a simple conversion (another Protestant error), or, owrse, by a "lucky" number.

But, as usual, your reply avoids more fundamental theological issues I raised concerning sin, repentance and redemption, all of which are meaningless in the context of double predestination and monergism.

1,652 posted on 01/16/2006 7:34:08 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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