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To: Forest Keeper; Cronos; jo kus; Kolokotronis
I am not sure I follow you, dear friend. God has already accomplished His plan. His planned is finished. It has been finished from eternity. He declared it finished (accomplished) in the Gospels (Jn 19:30)

What else is there for God to do? Surely He is not waiting for us! What is His plan for humanity? To save it. Done.

Does that mean He no longer interacts with us? No. It means He does not act while we sit and wait for Him to take us to our destination. We must iteract with God, we must do work of faith so that His light may shine through us for others to see. (Mt 5:16)

God endowed us with reason with which we can make choices and not be beasts driven by necessity. None of what we do will disassemble His Creation, and nothing we could possibly do can thraten His plan that has already been accomplished. The only thing we can change, with His overwhelming help, is where we end up in Hs plan. So, when it comes to our salvation, it has a lot to do with us and what we do about it.

We are not cattle being led to the gates of heaven or hell, but human beings, God's creatures whom He loves very, very much and would have us all saved (1 Tim 2:4).

Hence, repentance -- which is what my examples showed you. The Bible is full of examples where repentance changes the destination of individuals and even whole cities, and the king in question (2 Kin 20) without changing God's plan, which has been accomplished and which we could never affect.

God interacts with us only for the puprose of helping us, not because we somehow determine if His plan will work or not. Oh, it will work with or without our cooperation, trust me! God is not obliged to save anyone save for His love for humanity. So, He gives everyone His love. He died for all (1 Pet 3:18), not just the "elect."

With God everything is possible (Mat 19:26), so if we repent He can and does change our destiny. The Scripture teaches that time and time again.

In your faith the whole cocnept of sin, fall, repentance and redemption for our sins becomes meaningless because you are just a "slave to rigtheousness," a passive treveler who neither sins nor repents on his or her own.

1,314 posted on 01/13/2006 4:09:50 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; Cronos; jo kus; Kolokotronis
God has already accomplished His plan. His planned is finished. ...He does not act while we sit and wait for Him to take us to our destination. We must iteract with God, we must do work of faith

GOD


1,320 posted on 01/13/2006 5:34:58 AM PST by HarleyD ("No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him..." John 6:44)
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To: kosta50
God has already accomplished His plan. His planned is finished. It has been finished from eternity. He declared it finished (accomplished) in the Gospels (Jn 19:30) What else is there for God to do? Surely He is not waiting for us! What is His plan for humanity? To save it. Done.

I admit that I am unsure that I am following you either, my dear friend :). If you are quoting John 19:30 and saying that God's "Plan" is already finished from our perspective, then we must be talking about two completely different plans.

I would say that John 19:30 does complete one of God's plans, an especially critical one, but that it didn't complete God's overall Plan. From our perspective, God continues to work in our lives. I would also respectfully disagree that God's plan for humanity is/was to save it, as in all of it if that is what you mean. I hold that God always gets what He wants. Clearly, not all are saved. Therefore it couldn't have been His plan to save all.

I do agree that it is part of God's plan that we do good works. I see it as one means of glorifying God.

We are not cattle being led to the gates of heaven or hell, but human beings, God's creatures whom He loves very, very much and would have us all saved (1 Tim 2:4).

I agree that we are not cattle, but rather, we are sheep, among the dumbest animals. Simians, pigs, and dolphins are all geniuses compared to sheep. If enough food was available, a sheep would literally "eat" itself to death. I would say that we absolutely do need leading and we are led.

Your verse certainly does use the phrase "all men", but I would distinguish between a general wish and a decree. A general wish (I wish I had a Mercedes) is fine and does indicate something about the wisher. In this case, it shows God's love. However, I don't think this saying can be a part of God's Plan because it doesn't happen.

God interacts with us only for the purpose of helping us, not because we somehow determine if His plan will work or not. Oh, it will work with or without our cooperation, trust me! God is not obliged to save anyone save for His love for humanity.

I have no problem with this part. Right after this, you refer to 1 Peter 3:18. This is my (Bible's) translation:

18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, ...

When I first read this I made the classic error of substituting "and" for "for". Since the word is "for" it must relate back to the previous clause. The righteous (Christ) died for the sins of the unrighteous (you would say all, I would say the elect because they are the only ones brought to God). As I have said, I do believe the blood of Christ is sufficient to pay for the sins of all, but it just wasn't God's intention because not all are saved.

With God everything is possible (Mat 19:26), so if we repent He can and does change our destiny. The Scripture teaches that time and time again.

In your faith the whole cocnept of sin, fall, repentance and redemption for our sins becomes meaningless because you are just a "slave to rigtheousness," a passive treveler who neither sins nor repents on his or her own.

This is another matter of perspective. I would say that from God's POV, nothing is possible, it is certain. Of course from our POV, "all things are possible" with God. That is why I think you are switching perspectives within your overall thought in the above two paragraphs.

Only God could possibly see us as passive travelers because He already knows everything we will ever do. It is old news to God. But from our perspective, we cannot be passive travelers, indeed there is much to be done! We absolutely are slaves to righteousness, God is in control of our lives, but to us every day brings something new. There absolutely is meaning.

1,477 posted on 01/14/2006 12:02:16 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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