FK I give God much more credit concerning His sovereignty and power. I don't think God's divine plan works around us, I say that it works through us
What's with you guys? Did I ever say that God doesn't work through us?
The plain and simple logic tells us that our free choice affects us and not God. We cannot affect God, change His plan, etc. God, however, loves us and accommodates us as He sees fit.
Take, fop example the case of king Hezekiah who was destined to die and was commanded by God to set his house in order "for thou shalt die, and not live." The king pleaded with God through prayer, and cried, saying:
"I beseech thee, O LORD, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight."
And the Lord responded:
"I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the LORD. And I will add unto thy days fifteen years..." (from 2 Kings 20:3-6)
Obviously God's plan is not set in stone, as God retains perfect freedom to adjust things as He sees fit. The final destination is known, but the route which God takes to steer Creation to the conclusion of His plan -- of which all options are known and available to Him -- is up to Him to decide. Thus, if He decides to spare one of us for His purpose, He shall do so.
The message of this chapter is that the king lived for another 15 years because the Lord heard his prayers and seen his tears and changed His mind, and not because the date of the king's death was an absolute certainty. God simply responded to the king's choice. God did not force the king to cry and pray. That was the king's decision and God foreknew that if he didn't pray and cry he would die, but He also foreknew that if He cried and prayed he would live.
Do you honestly think that God's plan would have failed if the king were too proud to beg for his life? I doubt it! God does things for us because He loves us, and not because He needs us to accomplish His plan.
The Protestants take this rigid outlook on Predestination as something that binds even God to stay on course no matter what, thus subordaining God (how ironic!) to His own will. God is infinitely free to do as He pleases, and He does.
And he obviously can incorporate our free will in His plan whiteout affecting the outcome of that Plan. Saying that our free will can somehow deter God from accomplishing His plan is giving humans way too much credit.
You are forgetting that our freedom of choice is also God's gift.
What's with you guys? Did I ever say that God doesn't work through us?
The plain and simple logic tells us that our free choice affects us and not God. We cannot affect God, change His plan, etc. God, however, loves us and accommodates us as He sees fit.
You are contradicting yourself. You say that we cannot affect God or change His plan, but in the same thought you say that God accommodates us. To "accommodate" is to make a change in that which existed before. So which is it?
Following your citation of the story of King Hezekiah, who was to die, but then pleaded for his life to God, and was spared the reaper for another 15 years (2 Kings 20):
Obviously God's plan is not set in stone, as God retains perfect freedom to adjust things as He sees fit. The final destination is known, but the route which God takes to steer Creation to the conclusion of His plan -- of which all options are known and available to Him -- is up to Him to decide. Thus, if He decides to spare one of us for His purpose, He shall do so.
The message of this chapter is that the king lived for another 15 years because the Lord heard his prayers and seen his tears and changed His mind, and not because the date of the king's death was an absolute certainty. God simply responded to the king's choice.
I admit I am sensing mixed messages from you folks here. (Is this a distinction between RCC and EOC?) On the one hand, God transcends time itself, figuratively standing on a mountain top knowing and experiencing all events throughout time simultaneously. (I am not even violently opposed to this yet.) But on the other hand, we have God, listening to prayers and changing His mind on something He ordained!
Do you really think that God changed His mind based on the act of a human? (I still remember being creamed on this thread for allegedly ascribing to God human attributes. Who is wearing that shoe now?) How CAN God change His opinion? If He already knows the argument is coming, and that it will persuade Him, then why bother with the initial decision? Up until the post to which I am now responding, you have not addressed my earlier examples. Did God call out to Adam in the Garden "Where are you?" because God did not know? Did God truly have an arms-length bargain with Abraham over Sodom?
If our free choice can cause God to change His mind and plan, then He is dependent on us.
God does things for us because He loves us, and not because He needs us to accomplish His plan. ... Saying that our free will can somehow deter God from accomplishing His plan is giving humans way too much credit.
AAAAAARGHH! :) You are saying that our free will changes God's plan. Your whole argument is that God absolutely needs us to accomplish His plan. (Not only do we necessarily alter the Plan because He accommodates us, but we also free willingly cooperate with God even in our own salvation, part of God's plan. He needs us to cooperate to get what He wants.) "THE PLAN" is much more vast than simply the ending part. You say God accommodates us and changes His mind mid course based on our actions, all headed toward one end. You say that God can take many different paths, based on our decisions, to arrive at the same destination. I would say that all that stuff in the middle is also important and precious to God. It is also part of the Plan, and won't be changed by the sorry likes of people like us. God doesn't need our help to accomplish any part of His plan. He is God.