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To: jo kus

If you read the article you tell me. Bishop Minatios makes the claim that I snipped from the article; that Jacob was saved because God foreknew him to be good. Then Bishop Minatios claims that no one can understand predestination. If no one can understand predestination why is Bishop Minatios trying to explain it? And my logic is questioned here?!?

Since everyone is complaining about my interpretation of the article, I would suggest someone else write up the Cliff Notes and summarize Bishop Minatios' article. He's still wrong and (going back to this article) it supports the Pelagius error of man's free will as addressed in this article-not my definition.


1,081 posted on 01/11/2006 5:52:31 PM PST by HarleyD ("No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him..." John 6:44)
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To: HarleyD
Harley, I was basing my interpretation of the Bishop and what he said based on what you snipped. I didn't see where he said that God bases his grace upon man's actions (which, by the way, is not Pelagianism. That is a perfectly acceptable school of thought in Catholicism called Molinarism).

Again, Pelagianism is NOT about free will, it is about the concept of man coming to God by natural means (as opposed to responding to God's initiative of grace). Pelagius even said that before the regeneration of Baptism, we could make efforts to come to God WITHOUT God's help. The Council of Orange AND Trent refute that position. The Bishop, as far as I can see, does not say anything like that. We understand that free will is not alone, but is guided by God. It is still free, because we make the final choice. For example:

Work out your salvation in fear and trembling, For it is God who works in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will. (Phil 2:12-13)

Catholic theology says, then, that there is an interaction between God and man that is not fully explainable or defined by dogma. For example, what makes grace effective? Man or God? A question not answered by the Church. EITHER idea can be held and still be considered Catholic. But the important point to understand is that WE both work together. God and I are partners. BY MYSELF, I cannot come to God - thus, Pelagianism is refuted.

Regards

1,137 posted on 01/12/2006 8:26:09 AM PST by jo kus
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