Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
Yeah, the Jews. They believe that one is "justified" by works and the Law. Judaism does not even require faith to be "accpetable to God" which is radically opposite and mutually eclusive with Christianity.
All Gospel references to the traditions of men and errors of teaching that work lead to salvation are in refrence to the belefs and practices of Judaism of the 1st century, not Chirstianity.
The Old Covenant was rendered "obsolete" by the corruption, says +Paul in Hebrews, by the Hebrews. The Protestants now use these same quotes directed at Hebrews to accuse The Church and its 2,000 year old collective wisdom of not knowing the Scriputres (!) save for Blessed Augustine, and for being equal to pagans (for "worshiping idols"), and what not. James very clearly states that works through faith are a manifestation of our faith. They are not done expecting "wages" in return for acts of mercy. Christians by their very faith must be merciful, and humble, as Christ was.
But that's what happens when 21st century Protestants read 1st century Gospels...
So your inference "While the blood of Christ is sufficient to save all men, it is, to borrow a word, only efficacious to the elect" is your own construct.
The New Testament says that in order to be saved one must (a) be baptized and (b) believe. This clearly shows that infant baptism was performed in the primtive Chruch because infants cannot believe. But, the NT also says that only those who do not believe will not be saved (i.e. baptism by itself does not save). [Mark 16:16]
So, Christ's redeeming Blood does not "work" for those who refuse God; yet God offered His Blood for ALL. In fact, He offers it until the very last breath of ours. Hello, what would it take for our lost brethren to comprehend that God would have all men saved? [1 Tim 2:4]
Well if this be even the beginning of Pantheism then I would suggest I’m in line with both Augustine’s writings and, as Augustine points out, the “plainest sacred writings” of the Church.” I would suggest the rejection of what Augustine has stated above shows the Church to be out of wack with the plainest sacred writings. This according to Augustine.
Does God giving man the ability to procreate (cooperate in creation) intrude on His sovereignty?
Yes.
Isaiah 42:8
For My own sake, for My own sake, I will act;
For how can My name be profaned?
And My glory I will not give to another.
Isaiah 48:11
Lucifer was created good, as all God created was made good! Like humans, the angels are rational creatures endowed with free will. Lucifer and the rest of his demons fell just as humans fell from God's grace due to pride and arrogance.
But why are we concerned with Satan in this case? My point was that every time humans reject God they commit evil.
AS I replied privately, the sin of Adam is not a sin we are to repent of or atone for. It is a condition, manifested in our hormones, mental abilities, and foremostly mortality. What we in the West call original sin is a condition of imperfect will that makes us prone to commit actual sins. It also is a condition that makes us unable to reach a union with God. Baptism is necessary to allow the potentiality of union with God, and in that sense Baptism remits the original sin. Most baptized, however, go on to commit actual sin even after baptism, and only some of them, but not all, will be saved in the end.
bump for further study.
Catholic Dogma comes from the Magisterium of the Church and is expressed in the Catechism. I am not Pope, and not one writing catechisms, so while you may quote me, and I stand by my posts, you may not quote them as dogma.
You forgot humble. Our Lord was so humble He would have been called a "pushover" if He lived in our macho culture today. He never resisted. He taught us not to return evil with evil; not to resist evil. He was what many of our conservative Christians would call a "pacifist." most conservative Evangelical Christians are anything even close to that.
The quotes you give refer to the Jewish traditions. Equating a 2,000 year-old Church dedicated to Christ's teaching based on Scriptures, to something idolatrous, implying that the Curch is a bees nest of false teaching, of sinister distoritons of the Word of God, of ignorance (!), of "traditions of men," etc., as most Protestants do, is not "rude, snide, [and] argumentative?"
I am sorry if I have no respect for your type of Christianity. Certainly there is no law saying I have to respect a man-made religious assembly just because you say you believe in Jesus Christ. Later Day Saints do too. Why do I have to believe you personally, and not the collective wisdom of the Church of the last two millennia? I put my wager on the Church, not on individuals.
The order established by St. Peter is that the Holy Ghost is received through the three sacraments of Christian initiation: Baptism, Confirmation (Chrysmation in the East), and Holy Orders.
The extraordinary outpouring of the Holy Ghost outside of these sacraments, such as sometimes described in the New Testament is not something we should rely on. Specifically, the passage you cite describes that some Christians were initiated personally by Peter, who insisted that formal baptism be performed nevertheless. Certainly we should not arrogantly assume that the gifts of the Holy Ghost are with us even when we avoid the sacraments intended to deliver these gifts, and have not been personally converted by St. Peter.
Since these gifts are the gifts always received through the Apostolic Church, it is obvious that they cease to operate if the person attempts to use them against the Church. So, some baptized Christians commit apostacy, others misinterpret Scripture, and some priests get defrocked. None of them can claim the inerrancy of the leadership of the Holy Ghost as they commit those errors.
Moreover, the gift to interpret Scripture is not conferred by baptism anyway. The function of baptism is remittance of original sin and concurrent admission into the catholic Church of Christ. The grace of strength necessary to become a soldier of Christ is conferred by Confirmation. The confirmation, not baptism, is the sacrament that in theory would allow one to interpret scripture, although, like I said before, these graces cannot be used to teach error.
The assertion that an individual is aided by the Holy Ghost as he interprets the scripture contrary to the Magisterium of the Church compounds the error of the misinterpretation itself, as it is an attempt to use the name of God in vain.
Please show us in Scripture where Christ doubted the salvation of those whom God had given Him to redeem?
Obviously not; is is a community of faith that has produced and continues to produce good fruit, even though some of its members, and especially its leaders seem to spend more time protesting what they don't understand rather than sustaining the deposit of faith that has not been violated by Luther and his followers.
At the same time, Protestantism is a form of institutionalized anticlericalism as it denies most elements of the Church: priesthood, sacrametality and historicity. You should not feel slighted when your ecclesiological philosophy is taken seriously enough not to call your communities Church.
It is of course, common and unobjectionable parlance to refer to the Protestant houses of worship as churches.
All baptized Christians are members fo the catholic Church of Christ and are on the road to salvation. All Christians who have been confirmed or chrysmated have been given strength to fight for Christ and interpret the Word. All Christians who have been ordained as priests or consecrated as bishops can perform sacraments as ordained to them.
all Catholic and Orthodox Christians have been baptized and confirmed/chrysmated.
You did not understand what I wrote.
You must be arguing someone else's comments. I've never used the words "bees nest of false teaching" or "sinister distortions" to you. (Further, I think I would have used "bees' hive" rather than "bees nest" for clarity's sake.) To keep this discussion even clearer, it should be noted we were discussing your disparaging remarks.
I am sorry if I have no respect for your type of Christianity.
If you are sorry, then repent of your error.
...just because you say you believe in Jesus Christ. Later Day Saints do too.
If you wish to discuss Mormon beliefs, find a Mormon. They're happy to do so. We're discussing the differences between Catholics and Protestants.
Did my previous answers to you satisfy? Also please see my more recent posts just above.
Jo, you are correct, but you are responding to P-Marlowe, who misrepresented what I said. Also please review my recent posts on the subject of the gifts of the Holy Ghost, how they are given, by whom and to whom, -- whether or not these posts are addressed to you, and correct me when necessary.
Does Lucifer have the power to thwart God and cause Him to change His mind and alter His plans for creation?
The "elect" means those who will have been saved according to their works in the end. Their contingent is known to God. It is not known to us, although the Church in her wisdom may look at individual lives and determine that they belong ot th elect, i.e. are saints.
The term itself is not unorthodox, but our Protestant friends apply it to mean that those who made a sincere profession of faith (or perhaps, a sincere profession of faith in a Protestant setting) are those elect, and do not shy away form calling themselves that. It is a fast track to sainthood, unavailable to us.
I agree. I definitely see a danger in headlong rush to ecumenism just to "get the numbers". It may damage both churches.
The proper terms are Church Militant, Church Suffering and Church Triumphant. Do the Orthodox use those? "Invisible Church" is sometimes used to describe the mystical body of Christ. I don't understand the term very well, except when it simply means "the Church as the spiritual entity rather than the physical building".
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