Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will

Protestant Reformed Theological Journal ^ | April 1999 | Garrett J. Eriks

[jo kus]

I have explained to you in length that God did away with circumcision, and why.

I agree with your premise that God did away with circumcision... But nowhere does Scriptures alone lay out God's will in doing this. It is only Acts 15:28 that makes this declaration - after the fact... A Judaizer will look in vain to the Old Testament to find this "command of God". One must look to the New Covenant, which revolves around FAITH. Without faith, one will not believe it. It is not clear cut in OT Scriptures that God commanded any such thing!

Regards

[1000 silverlings]

I told you. Jesus established the new covenant, Jeremiah 31:31. He told the disciples so. First person. The Word of the Lord. Sola Scriptura.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

In addition to the valid points you've brought up, I think we need to ask ourselves why would it be necessary to venerate Mary as co-redeemer? What does this have to do with the salvic work of Christ?

The answer is -- nothing. Mary was in need of a Savior as much as anyone, as Harley referenced.

An excellent book is "The Cult of the Virgin Mary: Psychological Origins" by Michael P. Carroll. Carroll draws clear comparisons between the veneration of Mary and the pagan worship of the goddess Cybele.

[HarleyD]

No. But I have already explained this to you. One does not have to be a Roman Catholic to be saved

How can you possibly argue with 1000 silverlings that all authority rest within the Church and then turn right around and argue with me that people can be saved outside of the Church? You can't have it both ways. Either the Apostles hand down everything INSIDE the Church or they didn't. Either the Church hold the truth or it doesn't.

I must warn you that I had a bad several days and I'm in a crabby mood.

[Kolokotronis]

Ah, FK, you have stumbled into one of the thorny thickets which demarcate the line between Orthodoxy and Latin Rite Catholicism. One of the most arcane and yet at the same time most fundamental differences between Latin theology and that of the East is in the area of grace, created vs. uncreated.

Try reading this:

http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/christou_palamas.html

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Christ died for ALL men's sins - so I would be included, correct?

If you are saying that Christ died for your sins, then all of your sins have been paid for by His atonement.

Correct?

[HarleyD]

Sure, faith without works is dead. Can't argue with that. Who gives us our faith? Who gives us our works?

Joh 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

Joh 6:28-29 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Without her contribution, the world would not have been redeemed. That's a pretty awesome task!

The "world would not have been redeemed" without Judas, either.

And that task was not so "awesome."

It's all part of God's plan, but there is only one Savior; one Christ; one intermediary; one door for the sheep.

[1000 silverlings]

Jo, you and Kosta have given me the impression, rightly or wrongly, that Christianity is unconnected to Judaic theology. I contend that Christianity is the culmination of the Old Testament theology. I have gotten the impression that you think Jesus showed up and preached ideas that were antithical to Jewish belief.

Are you aware that the sons of Zebeedee, the first apostles, were not "simple fishermen",but because of where they lived, likely members of the tribe of Zebulon?

In Jewish history, Zebulon supported Issachar, the tribe of scholars. In fact, when they went on the march, Zebulon and Issachar marched at the forefront with Judah, the symbolism being of course, that the Word of God took the lead with the tribe of the other Word of God.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Who gives us our faith? Who gives us our works?

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Philippians 2:13

[1000 silverlings]

Jesus said, "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men."

The prophet said, (Jer 16:16) "Behold, I will send for many fishers , saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks. "

[kosta50]

That's what I meant. I don't think you kicked Augustine to the curb, just that you threw out some of his writings

Not just him -- many, many other Fathers of the Church received similar reception. Others, like Tertullian and Origen were superb theologians and their early teachings are to this day considered orthodox, but later they embraced heresies, proving once again that only concensus patrum can guard against individual self-rigtheousness.

I agree that our interpretations are vastly different, but I'm not sure how we read different scripture

The Orthodox Church uses Septuagint (LXX) as the Old Testament because it was used by the Apostles in over 95% of their OT references. That which the Apostles taught and wrote and used as source is, therefore, Scripture. Unfortunately, the Protestants, do not.

[kosta50]

Jesus came "for the lost sheep of Israel", which ties in nicely with Harley's assertion of a post ago. In fact, like it or lump it, the Jews are Calvinists. :)

Rationalizations can take you where no man has gone before, Capt. Kirk. Jews believe in free will and in justification by works. Another shot in the air!

[1000 silverlings]

Yes, and who said they were the orignal "elect", lol.

[kosta50]

Their idea of being "elect" is different from what Christ revealed. So, yes, maybe you are right -- they are Calvinsist after all. :)

[1000 silverlings]

that's what I meant, :)

[blue-duncan]

"Are you aware that the sons of Zebeedee, the first apostles, were not "simple fishermen",but because of where they lived, likely members of the tribe of Zebulon?"

John 19:25 mentions four women standing at the cross, Mary, Jesus' mother, Mary's sister, Mary, the wife of Cleophas (Alphaeus) and Mary Magdalene. Matt. 27:56 identifies Mary Magdalene, Mary, the mother of James and Joses and the mother of Zebedee's children. Mark 15:40 identifies the women as Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the Less and Joses and Salome.

From these cites we get;

Mary the mother of Jesus,
Mary's sister, Salome, the mother of Zebedee's children, James and John, Jesus' cousins, and therefore of the tribe of Judah,
Mary wife of Cleophas (Alphaeus) mother of James the Less and Joses,
Mary Magdalene

As to Jesus' brothers and sisters, Mark 6:1 says Jesus came to Nazareth with His disciples and verse 3 says "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him." this is also reported by Matthew 13:55 "Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?"

Paul confirms that James was the brother of Jesus,
Gal.1:19 "But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother." and Jude confirms that he was a brother of the Lord, Jude 1:1 "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:"

Paul does not call Peter the Lord's brother and Mark distinguishes disciples from brethren and sisters. Jude identifies himself as the brother of James which fits in with Matthew's and Mark's listing of the brothers of Jesus.

Interesting that the brothers did not recognize Him as the Christ until after the resurrection but His cousins James and John did. this would explain their wanting the choicest seats in glory and John being the disciple that Jesus loved. Cousins are always closer than brothers. they don't know you day after day!
Pardon me if this has probably been posted before, but the exercise was fun.

[D-fendr]

What is the word for "cousin" in Aramaic?

[Agrarian]

"I believe it is close to what Agrarian was saying."

If there is any difference between what you wrote and what I said (or at least what I meant to say), I'm missing it.

[Forest Keeper]

This is a huge thread. What is it about?

I'm sorry for my delay in responding. I'm reading every post, so I'm actually lucky if I'm only a couple of days behind. :) The simpler question to answer would be what ISN'T this thread about! :) Basically, it started off as a discussion of the comparison of the different views of Luther and Erasmus about (mainly) the issue of free will. Two basic camps emerged, with Protestants (with many Reformers) on one side and Catholics/Orthodox on the other. After a short time, the conversation pretty much just opened up to all areas of theological disagreement between the two sides. The topics covered are too numerable to list, (over 100, I'm sure). So, while some subjects are revisited, brand new ones continue to surface. So, no matter what side, if any, you would be on, this thread has been a good place to learn about how the other side(s) see particular issues. If you haven't already, please feel welcome to join in. :)