Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will

Protestant Reformed Theological Journal ^ | April 1999 | Garrett J. Eriks

[kosta50]

Thank you most kindly. I prefer Matthew 7:7

[AlbionGirl]

Welcome back, Harley, you were missed.

How about this thread, my friend, which was probably designed to illicit discussion among the Monergism/Synergism Protestant camps?

Blessed Easter to all of you, and to all on the thread.

Perhaps next go 'round we can take a cue from Johnny Carson, and the amazing Carnac: state the answer, then expect the poster to guess what the question was? Wouldn't that be a hoot?

I'm off to my parents home (in the country village) tomorrow for a few days, so I'll see y'all when I get back.

I'll think of you as I take my walks along Clinton's Ditch (Clinton, the Good, that is), where I'm bound to see red-tail hawks soaring, and maybe even witness a great blue heron's ungainly get-away, though it maybe too early for that.

And finally, some trivia for anyone interested in the history of the Erie Canal. It was of course, dug mainly by the Irish, but the story is that following a 12-hour day of digging the Irish would box one another. Like bull-riders; an entirely different breed.

And really finally, from one of our Greatest Presidents, Theodore (Gift of God) Roosevelt, aka "Steamroller in Trousers" to our Soldiers and to all:

In his brief message to the soldiers he explained, “Do justice, and therefore fight valiantly against those that stand for the reign of Moloch and Beelzebub on this Earth. Love mercy, treat your enemies well, succor the afflicted, treat every women as if she were your sister, care for the little children, and be tender with the old and helpless. Walk humbly, you will do so if you study the life and teachings of the Saviour, walking in His steps.”

[Knitting A Conundrum]

Pretty fond of Luke 6:38 myself...along with Matthew 7:7....and always, Micah 6:8.

[AlbionGirl]

illicit

That should be elicit. Duh!!!!

[blue-duncan]

"I posted: "please give a quote from either or both men [Luther or Calvin or both] that states clearly and unambiguously that God is the author, creator, and cause of evil."

Calvin Commentary Isaiah 45:

"Making peace, and creating evil. By the words "light" and "darkness" he describes metaphorically not only peace and war; but adverse and prosperous events of any kind; and he extends the word peace, according to the custom of Hebrew writers, to all success and prosperity. This is made abundantly clear by the contrast; for he contrasts "peace" not only with war, but with adverse events of every sort. Fanatics torture this word evil, as if God were the author of evil, that is, of sin; but it is very obvious how ridiculously they abuse this passage of the Prophet. This is sufficiently explained by the contrast, the parts of which must agree with each other; for he contrasts "peace" with "evil," that is, with afflictions, wars, and other adverse occurrences. If he contrasted "righteousness" with "evil," there would be some plausibility in their reasonings, but this is a manifest contrast of things that are opposite to each other. Consequently, we ought not to reject the ordinary distinction, that God is the author of the "evil" of punishment, but not of the "evil" of guilt."

[stripes1776]

"Making peace, and creating evil..."

Can you please give Calvin's original quote? He states clearly and unambiquously in the Institutes of the Christian Religion that can God is not capable of doing evil:

But if anyone should sacrilegiously object that little praise is due to God for His goodness, which He is constrained to preserve, shall we not readily reply that His inability to do evil arises from His infinite goodness and not from the impulse of violence?

What Calvin is saying is that God is constrained by his infinite goodness from doing evil.

[blue-duncan]

"Can you please give Calvin's original quote?"

Post #4665 is an original quote from Calvin's Commentary on Isaiah. Just google Calvin Isaiah 45 Commentary and look for verse 7.

[kosta50]

Pretty fond of Luke 6:38 myself...along with Matthew 7:7....and always, Micah 6:8

Yes, indeed.

[stripes1776]

I see. That is Calvin's comment on Isaiah 45. As he says

Fanatics torture this word evil, as if God were the author of evil, that is, of sin; but it is very obvious how ridiculously they abuse this passage of the Prophet.

This seems consistent with Calvin's view in the Institutes that God does not create evil. There are no quotation marks around evil here. Sin is evil, but those who misinterpret the word evil end up making God the author of evil and sin. He calls such people fanatics.

In his comment, he goes on to say

Consequently, we ought not to reject the ordinary distinction, that God is the author of the "evil" of punishment, but not of the "evil" of guilt.

Calvin is making a contrast between God's punishment of sin and the sin itself. That is why there are quotation marks around the word evil. Man experiences his punishment as "evil", but its purpose is for his correction. I would call that an imposed penance. Is there not sorrow for sin at that point if man aknowledges his guilt? Calvin states clearly that God is not the cause of that guilt.

[Gamecock]

****As the master Calvin says, God is unable to do evil.****

well, let's see what today's "great" minds say:

_____________________________________________________________________

(Aired December 2, 2005)

KING: How do you deal with it when you know, he made Adolph Hitler, because you just said he made all the children.

WARREN: Larry, the greatest blessings in our lives and the greatest curse is the same thing, it's this free will that we have. It's a great blessing because it gives me lots of freedom to do what I want to do. I can choose to do things.

The bad part of it is, I often choose to do dumb stuff. And I choose to hurt people sometimes unintentionally, sometimes intentionally. Some people take their free will like Hitler did and they destroy millions of people, destroy all of those 6 million killed in the Holocaust.

KING: And God could have prevented it.

WARREN: God could have prevented it, and the way he would have prevented it would be take away the free will of humanity.

KING: What if it was just Hitler?

WARREN: Well, if he just takes away--if he's going to take away every time we make a bad decision then that's going to take away all my free will.

KING: That's more than a bad decision, that's 6 million people.

WARREN: Six million people, and we don't downplay it.

Where was God when that was happening? He was weeping. I think people need to understand that not everything that happens on this planet is God's will.

In other words, part of it, in that God has -- God ultimately, as we talked about the ship is going to the other row, going to the other side of things. That's going there, but during the cruise, people are making all kinds of decisions and God says you shouldn't have done that.

I could go out there and get drunk and kill somebody and that wouldn't be God's will.

_____________________________________________________________________

So according to America's Pastor, God is an impotent bundle of nerves who can't control his creation. Is that te kind of god we want?

the greatest blessings in our lives and the greatest curse is the same thing, it's this free will that we have.

Even if you buy of on synergism, this should disturb you, Christ is the greatest blessing. This guy is clearly worshipping at the alter of self.

[HarleyD]

Oh brilliant! Lock this one so that we can continue on another one — this is a Forum for discussions; if people want to continue a discussion, why lock it?

As many will testify around here these discussions will continue. The reason for locking these threads is simply because it is becoming rather unwieldy. Frankly, I think the discussions have been rather civil compared to many that often take place. But it is becoming rather large and I certainly have lost track of the many discussions that have taken place.

I should hasten to add and regret to admit that my "brilliance" isn't my own. Skimming through I found the following people agreeing the thread should be lock:

Kolokotronis.....4591
Blue-Duncan......4590
Stripes1776......4605
Xzins............4603
AlbionGirl.......????
Dr. Eckleburg....????
Kosta50..........4607

I believe Dr. E in one of her post recommended that I be the one to request the moderator lock the thread which is what I was doing per the advice of the moderator. After all this was your recommendation as well.

[HarleyD]

Hi A-G

May everyone have a happy and safe Easter.

[HarleyD]

I must admit that I'm joining this a tad late but in post 4654 you make the claim that Dr. E is stating Calvin believed God is the "author of evil" and then turn around and defend Calvin by saying that he stated no such thing. While I haven't peruse all of the posts, I can't find where Dr. E makes this claim. But your position sound very much like the Westminster Confession which states God is not the author of evil and is in full agreement with Calvin. God is not an author of evil.

That being said, it should be pointed out that God has been know to create calamitous events throughout history (famine, floods, giant meteors falling from the sky, raising up nasty people to attack others) to effect His will. Are these events evil? Some seem inclined to suggest they are and God would never do any of these things; even though it is recorded in His word that He did precisely that. I would suggest our definition of "evil" is misconstrued.

[jo kus]

The worst theodicy of all the sects is that of the Roman Catholic Church. They unapologetically make God the author of sin. Using Thomistic dualism they claim that God originally created man soul and body with the soul being the image of God and the body a natural evil created by God himself.

You don't have a clue to what you are talking about. It is the Catholic Church that supports the dignity of man in ALL cases. We don't have a dualism between the body and the soul! That is the most ridiculous understanding of Catholicism I have heard yet. God created body and soul at the same time. Are you aware of the Catholic doctrine of original sin? We were created GOOD! Adam's sin wounds our nature, but it has nothing to do with body vs. soul. Your attempt to saddle Christianity with neo-Platoism is a parody of reality. I'd suggest actually reading the Catechism before you post such stuff.

For the Papists...

That says a lot, having to refer to polemic language to attempt to get across your point. Perhaps you should consider reading and meditating on the following, being that Easter is here...

If anyone says, I love God and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he that does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? And we have this commandment from him, That he who loves God loves his brother also. 1 John 4:20-21

[annalex]

they [The Church] claim that God originally created man soul and body with the soul being the image of God and the body a natural evil created by God himself.

I usually skip your posts altogether, but this is the first time you flagged me.

Next time, learn about the subjects you wish to opine about, or don't opine. You are an embarassment to the rest of the participants.

[kosta50]

After all this was your recommendation as well

Yes it was, but it was for a voluntary withfdrawl. I never asked or intended to ask the RM to shut down the thread.

I will give you credit that the thread has become large and that sometimes it's hard to track, but new and related issues spring up among existing ones, and this is why I changed my mind.

Those who are not learning from others may consider voluntary withdrawal. But I find way too many different aspects of Christian mindsets being exposed and explained here to simply drop and withdraw into my own little religious prejudice and pretend that it is the only way it is.

[kosta50]

The worst theodicy of all the sects is that of the Roman Catholic Church. They unapologetically make God the author of sin. Using Thomistic dualism they claim that God originally created man soul and body with the soul being the image of God and the body a natural evil created by God himself

I am not surprized that you continue trying to deceive by offering satanic Gnostic theology as orthodox Christianity.

[annalex]

I don't see Kosta or Kolokotronis agreeing that the thread should be locked. It is customary for some Catholic and Orthodox posters to avoid controversy during Lent, but this is not the same as leaving discussions hanging forever.

Many people made thoughtful and informative posts; some of them required research, and most advance positions thought of as controversial by others. I stand by mine and will be displeased if the thread is locked so that my posts can no longer be challenged on the thread. Conversely, I disagree with some of the posts here but had no time to respond, and I would like to have an opportunity to do so in the future.