Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
What is the implied contradiction? The passage you quote does not say that all men seek the Lord. It says that some do. What does this have to do with Romans? Besides, you still haven't answered my question about the significance of what Paul is saying under your interpretation. The wicked sin? Call the New York Times. OTOH, it would be a useful piece of theology if Paul meant that all are born into sin and that all will fall short of the glory of God. It would have taken him a quarter of a breath to excuse Mary, but he didn't.
Why does God's Spirit intercede for us today if "all is done"?
It is simply the execution of one of God's promises. You rely on this idea all the time when you say that the Spirit continues to guide the Church. If one relies on God being good on His promises, then it is considered already done, but for the actual execution. If one does not have reliance, then one waits and hopes that God will fulfill His word.
You want your cake and eat it too. What you give in the beginning (Jesus intercedes for us today) is taken away (His work to pay for our sins was complete) in the next sentence. Is Christ active or not? Is His "work" finished?
It is finished, as far as we need be concerned regarding justification. The only thing left is execution. If one believes God keeps His promises then it is as good as done. If one does not, then he hopes and waits that God will deliver. Christ and the Spirit also continue to work to sanctify us. This is a future included promise in the salvation model. And yes, I love eating cake. :)
And some will not ask for this forgiveness that Christ has won for all men, correct? Thus, Christ died for ALL men, but ALL men will not ASK for that gift that was won by our Savior.
All of God's elect will ask for forgiveness via God's grace. All others will not be able to with a true heart. Anyone can say the words, it doesn't make it efficacious. Therefore, it is unnecessary that Christ died for the lost.
You are in denial.
"he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained. " John 20:22-23
The Apostles were to be witnesses to God's power, not practitioners of it. They were to give the message that those who repent and believe in Jesus can be assured of forgiveness, and those who refuse to repent can be assured that their sins are not forgiven. Who is a sin against? If you believe that a sin is against God, then that shows that the Apostles had no standing to forgive sins. If I hurt someone else, you have no standing to forgive me. It is the same here. The Apostles were declaring, WITH authority, what God would do if someone asked Him for forgiveness.
"God asks you through us". God beseeches you by us". "WE pray YOU be in God's good graces". Of course God is doing the reconciling - THROUGH "us", men who have been previously been given such authority.
Does God do anything without man's help? I don't know how God gets through a day, if it weren't for man to assist Him. We appear to be indispensable.
Your version of God does not love man unconditionally, does He? Christ died for all men. Unconditionally.
What can I say? That's fair enough. If God loved all men, then all men would be saved.
So Jesus KNEW that His teachings would fall on deaf ears - but He did it anyways. BUT. Jesus DID NOT DIE for all men, even though that would ALSO fall on deaf ears. I have discovered another inconsistent statement of your theology.
There is no inconsistency. In the first, Jesus was teaching both His then audience, although He knew for some if would have no effect, and He was also teaching US that we should spread the Gospel to everyone. In the second, He died. He didn't need to teach us how to die. It's a completely different concept. Besides, you are the one who is inconsistent using this logic. You know Jesus gave truth to the lawgivers, and you know they were not saved. Yet, you say that Christ died for all men. That doesn't match. The only way you can be consistent is to show that everyone Jesus ever spoke to was saved, and there is no way you can show that.
Christians are CALLED to LOVE as God loves. How could you not know that? Of course God loves Satan. But Satan, sadly, is the Prodigal Son who never will return. Satan is part of God's plan. Without Satan, how could man have received the Incarnation? (emphasis added)
This is astounding. I never knew this was Catholic teaching. Yes, satan is part of God's plan, but the scripture in no way supports your assertion that God loves him, or the non-elect sinner.
Ps. 5:5 : The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong.
Ps. 11:5 : The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates.
Lev. 20:23 : You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them.
Prov. 6:16-19 : 16 There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: 17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, 18 a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, 19 a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.(emphasis added)
Hos. 9:15 : "Because of all their wickedness in Gilgal, I hated them there. Because of their sinful deeds, I will drive them out of my house. I will no longer love them; all their leaders are rebellious.
What, God hates them all in the good way? :)
I will disagree with you until you can prove that 10 years from now, you will continue to abide in Christ...
Then you will have to wait 10 years, since you have already said there is no proof you would accept. :)
I have to assume from this that God allows His permanent seal to be broken, thus sending those children of God to hell, because He loves us so much. I will pray that God never loves me like that.
So some of the OT authors made mistakes? No wonder you have your opinion of the Bible. If there is even one mistake, how could you know what to trust? I suppose the Church will tell you what parts are OK and what parts are no good. You said that Christ says that "eye for an eye" is not what we should follow. Here is something else Christ said:
Matt. 5:17-18 : 17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Under you soteriology it becomes a "metaphore". God has no action or part except to acquiese to Pharaoh's decision? Yet He specifically states:
There is no "metaphore" in any of this. What most people do to explain the God of the Old Testament is 1) to ignore the Old Testament or 2) reduce it down to moral stories which is what you are doing.
Sorry. God interacted with people in the Old Testament exactly the same way as in the New. There is no difference. He's in charge and He'll do what He pleases. I happened to believe both conditions are true, that God and Pharaoh both hardened Pharaoh's heart.
What is my opinion of the Bible, FK? You probably mean the Old Testament, which says (Exodus 21:24) "Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot..."
as opposed to the New Testament, which says (Matthew 5:38-39) "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."
and
Matthew 3:43-45 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."
These are direct references to what's in the Old Testament, and direct corrections what it says verbatim and in spirit.
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them...
Fulfilling the the law of God is love (Rom 13:10); it's not a book.
The parable of the Talents makes it clear that God gives different "amounts" of graces to different people to fulfill His particular desires and will within our human experience. God gives different men the grace to be priests, for example. That is a higher calling and a higher "amount" of grace than someone like myself would receive. Catholics believe that God predestines the elect - which may imply that God does give particular men and women more grace to His chosen people.
"Evil is not to be imputed to the essence of created beings, but to their erroneous and mindless motivation." +Maximos the Confessor
I suppose I was looking at evil being caused by men in a different sense then you are here. We consider evil as a lack of good - such as darkness being a lack of light. Certainly, Satan is evil - he lacks goodness. However, to call evil a thing sets up a duality that Eastern religions are quite famous for. As far as I know, we don't consider evil as a force that is something in existence within its own right, but is a lack of goodness. Thus, with this in mind, we view man, who sins, as a "creator" of evil in the sense that a man has committed an evil act - something that God did not do and something that Satan did not do (although he may have been instrumental in bringing it about). Man is a "secondary cause" of good and evil.
Brother in Christ
The original question was whether God ordained the fall of Adam. You don't seem to like that idea, and apparently, you think that if God had done so, it would have been evil. If true, why do you think that? Do you believe that God is sovereign, and could ordain as He pleases, irrespective of your judgment on whether something is good or evil?
Do you look at what God does and then judge: "that was good or that was evil"? OR, do you look at what God does and say: "that thing that God did, it is good"? OR, do you look at what God does and say: "I really hope things turn out the way God wanted them to, He's a good God and He really deserves only the best things to happen to Him"?
The whole point I'm making is: what does sovereignty mean to you? If God didn't want Adam to fall, did God have any options? Does God get what He wants or not?
Lord, give me patience...
Blessed [are] they that keep his testimonies, [and that] seek him with the whole heart. They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways. Psalms 119:2-3
With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments. Ps 119:10
There is none righteous, no, not one. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Romans 3:10-11
It should be painfully obvious that your theology contradicts the Scriptures found in many Psalms, such as Psalm 119. Men DO seek out God. But according to you, NO MEN seek God - since you take the literal and universal definition of "all". Either Paul is a fool, or he is talking about somehting else. A study of other Psalms will quickly point you in the right direction - he is talking about evil Jews, NOT ALL men!
If one relies on God being good on His promises, then it is considered already done, but for the actual execution. If one does not have reliance, then one waits and hopes that God will fulfill His word.
"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die." Ez 18:24
Keep dreaming. I suppose since you have "x" amount of faith, (as ALL Protestants claim) you can declare yourself saved.
It {the Spirit interceding today} is simply the execution of one of God's promises
Why would the Spirit intercede if all is done? How is His intercession the execution of God's promises?
If one relies on God being good on His promises, then it is considered already done, but for the actual execution. If one does not have reliance, then one waits and hopes that God will fulfill His word.
All of God's elect will ask for forgiveness via God's grace.
Yes, but your theology's fatal assumption is "only the elect ask for God's forgiveness". Thus, those who recite the Sinner's Prayer are of the elect. It doesn't follow that asking once for forgiveness makes one of the elect. Hasn't Scripture told us that people DO fall away?
The Apostles were to be witnesses to God's power, not practitioners of it
So now you are saying that the Apostles, by their own power, raised the dead??
If you believe that a sin is against God, then that shows that the Apostles had no standing to forgive sins. If I hurt someone else, you have no standing to forgive me. It is the same here
Brother, are you familiar with the Lord's Prayer? ...AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US...
Sin is not only against God, but it is a disruption of our relationship with other people. If I were to murder someone's wife, doesn't that somehow effect my relationship with that woman's family???
The Apostles were declaring, WITH authority, what God would do if someone asked Him for forgiveness.
Again, you are twisting Scripture, claiming what is not there!
Whose soever sins you remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] you retain, they are retained."
The simple reading is that God gave man the power to forgive sins - through men that had received the Spirit in a special way. Nothing there about man declaring God's forgiveness already given!
There is no inconsistency. In the first, Jesus was teaching both His then audience, although He knew for some if would have no effect, and He was also teaching US that we should spread the Gospel to everyone. In the second, He died. He didn't need to teach us how to die. It's a completely different concept
There is no consistency? So Jesus' entire life is a self giving to ALL men - He teaches to the Scribes and Pharisees who will not accept Him. He teaches men about eating His flesh and blood, and they leave Him anyways. But now, His GREATEST ACT, Christ doesn't share Himself with all men? Your argument is unconvincing and inconsistent because it would cause your house of cards to collapse, not because it is Scripture. You are defending a position that has little Scripture support, and NO Christian tradition support.
If God loved all men, then all men would be saved.
Based on your definition of love - it should come as no surprise that you'd say this. You believe that love is something that is forced upon someone else. I suppose rape is a good example of love in your eyes. "Sure, the woman felt good afterwards, you know it was for her own good"....Gack, I can hardly write it.
Yes, satan is part of God's plan, but the scripture in no way supports your assertion that God loves him, or the non-elect sinner.
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Ez 18: 21-22
God does not desire the death of men, although Calvin would have it so.
"For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye." Ez 18:32
How sad that you have this concept that God hates us! If there is one theme re-occuring in the Scriptures, it is God's love for mankind!
I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it. But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me. So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: [and] they walked in their own counsels. Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, [and] Israel had walked in my ways! I should soon have subdued their enemies, and turned my hand against their adversaries. Ps 81:10-14
I actually feel sorry for a person who thinks that God makes people so as to condemn them to eternal hell and death. I feel sorry for such people who do not truly know the love that God has for us. It appears to me that your idea of salvation is a crap-shoot based on random choice, rather than a lover responding to His beloved. This is NOT Christianity - the teachings of Jesus Christ.
I'll pray for the Spirit to enlighten you about His love for mankind.
Ah, I love the Orthodox!
Brother in Christ
God doesn't "send" people to hell. It is that person's turning from God, a WILLFUL choice of eternal separation from God, that "sends" someone to hell. A person CHOOSES hell because they refuse to do God's will.
"Not every one that saith unto me, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Mat 7:21
I hope you are not one of those who say "Lord, Lord", but refuse to do the Father's will in heaven. Your seal won't mean much then. We are judged by our actions, not by our seal!
Regards
jokus-I disagree. Paul recognized the Lord's voice - but Paul didn't HAVE to go to Damascus.
This is like saying Jonah didn't have to go to Nineveh. God zaps Paul with blindness and tells him to enter the city and "what he must do". And you say Paul had a choice??? Paul said God "set him apart even from my mother's womb" and Paul recognized it as God's grace (Gal 1:15).
It is astonishing to me on these posts to see how many do not really believe in the grace of God. There is no grace except some "general" grace given to all mankind. This was Pelagius' view. God's caring is reduced to metaphors, His magnificent work happenstance, and Christ teachings were only meant for the apostles-not for us. Although God has a fish swallow up a person, hardens someone's heart, or zaps someone with blindness many here still insist it's up to man to make the decision-not God. Man isn't REALLY that bad but he can be just like God if he really take on the cloak of Christ. After all Mary did it. There is no original sin. This would almost be laughable if it wasn't so horribly sad.
I'm only beginning to understand what a terrible lie this all is and how it has cloaked the hearts of many Christians. It denies the scripture. It denies God's grace to chose. It denies the active working of God throughout history. Your disagreement isn't with me but with the plain interpretation of the inspired word of God.
This is consistent with the actions of God in the Old Testament-the actions many seem willing to deny. It is not consistent with this "God loves everyone and really wants the best for them" crowd. Undoubtedly I will get the argument that I'm pulling the verse out of context as I apparently have pulled hundred of verses out of context. Perhaps our Lord Jesus was speaking just to the apostles?-NOT
This is like saying Jonah didn't have to go to Nineveh. God zaps Paul with blindness and tells him to enter the city and "what he must do". And you say Paul had a choice???
Paul could have interpreted this experience as something other than it was. Didn't the Pharisees see Christ IN ACTION? RAISING THE DEAD? A hardened heart will not turn to the Lord - because they will explain away all such attempts by the Lord to break through. Yes, Paul and Jonah had a choice. Jonah could have not said anything when the storm came up "it has nothing to do with me". No, Jonah was repentant and knew that this action was from God. Thus, he choose to conform to God's will, not out of necessity.
It is astonishing to me on these posts to see how many do not really believe in the grace of God.
WHO? What on earth are you talking about? Has anyone here said we do ANYTHING independently of God's grace? Stop trying to twist our arguments around to something that we are not saying. It's astonishing to me that you could make such an accusation.
This was Pelagius' view.
Pelagius said we can choose good without God. We don't need His initiative to receive faith. Is anyone making that statement here?
If God really wanted all men to be saved is this the action one would expect?
Again, you misunderstand Scripture. Christ says "I never knew you" DESPITE the "Lord, Lord", because that person is presumptuous of his salvation. By reciting the Sinner's Prayer, and going on and sinning all the more, Christ does NOT abide in that person. We can know God abides in us if we obey the Commandments with love. Yet, you would have it that God abides in even wicked "Christians" who commit half of the sins of 1 Cor 6:9-10 AFTER their "salvation"! Merely SAYING "Lord, Lord" isn't enough to justify such presumption. Isn't it clear throughout the Gospels that Christ expects ACTION from us?
This is consistent with the actions of God in the Old Testament-the actions many seem willing to deny
If you read the OT in light of the NT, it will make more sense to you. Otherwise, I can understand your confusion. Look at the Scriptures through the "mind" of Christ, the all-loving God who gave Himself up for the sake of the WORLD.
Regards
OK I’ll say it, Jonah didn’t have to go to Nineveh. He could have said no.
And you say Paul had a choice???
Yes.
Paul said God "set him apart even from my mother's womb" and Paul recognized it as God's grace (Gal 1:15).
True, and then and he responded to God’s grace by accepting it.
It is astonishing to me on these posts to see how many do not really believe in the grace of God.
It is astonishing to me on these posts to see how many do not really understand how the grace of God works in our lives.
It denies God's grace to chose.
You’ve got this backwards. Perhaps day you’ll figure it out.
It denies the active working of God throughout history.
It actually it proves it.
Your disagreement isn't with me but with the plain interpretation of the inspired word of God.
Your disagreement with us is based on your erroneous interpretation of the inspired word of God
If God really wanted all men to be saved is this the action one would expect?
Yes
Does this sound like purgatory?
This has nothing to do with your argument
Undoubtedly I will get the argument that I'm pulling the verse out of context as I apparently have pulled hundred of verses out of context.
Now your getting it.
In the scruipture it is a metaphore. "Heart" is metaphore for predisposition. You read it metaphorically as well, as you surely don't think that something physiologically changed in the Pharaoh's heart muscle. Yes, God played exactly the role the Scripture describes: He hardened Pharaoh's heart as well as Pharaoh hardened his own heart, and after that change of heart the Pharaoh persecuted Moses and his people. God predisposed and the Pharaoh disposed, in the way contrary to the will of God.
God did not ordain the fall of Adam because the scripture does not say He did, but rather describes the episode and indicates the opposite. Since the sin is associated with evil, and Adam sinned, God causing sin would have been an evil God. This is the intellectual proof that He did not; but like I said, I don't need to get intellectual over it because the scripture tells us it was Adam's free will.
what does sovereignty mean to you?
It means that God's will overcomes all obstacles. For example, if it is God's will to make us in His image and give us free will, then we'll have free will. As God wills.
From yesterday's reading:
5 Thus saith the Lord: Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord. 6 For he shall be like tamaric in the desert, and he shall not see when good shall come: but he shall dwell in dryness in the desert in a salt land, and not inhabited. 7 Blessed be the man that trusteth in the Lord, and the Lord shall be his confidence. 8 And he shall be as a tree that is planted by the waters, that spreadeth out its roots towards moisture: and it shall not fear when the heat cometh. And the leaf thereof shall be green, and in the time of drought it shall not be solicitous, neither shall it cease at any time to bring forth fruit. 9 The heart is perverse above all things, and unsearchable, who can know it? 10 I am the Lord who search the heart and prove the reins: who give to every one according to his way, and according to the fruit of his devices.God hardened Luther's stomach, so Luther got drunk and forgot to ban Jeremiah. As God wills.(Jeremiah 17)
Then I assume all the males in your church are circumcised?
We talked about it on this thread, did we not? Jonas is shown to exercise free will throughout the episode. I'll find my analysis of it a bit later.
This whole thread is beginning to go in endless circles, while we revisit all of those old subjects from 1500 posts ago. I am convinced that we have done all we can to bring the Gospel of a Loving Father to our brothers, but it hasn't sunk in. Time for a subject change, I think.
Brother in Christ
Yea, Luther! "If those Papists complain about me adding words to Scripture, tell them Dr. Luther would have it so"...
Gack. So much for the Word of God.
Regards
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