Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will

At the time of the Reformation, many hoped Martin Luther and Erasmus could unite against the errors of the Roman Catholic Church. Luther himself was tempted to unite with Erasmus because Erasmus was a great Renaissance scholar who studied the classics and the Greek New Testament. Examining the Roman Catholic Church, Erasmus was infuriated with the abuses in the Roman Catholic Church, especially those of the clergy. These abuses are vividly described in the satire of his book, The Praise of Folly. Erasmus called for reform in the Roman Catholic Church. Erasmus could have been a great help to the Reformation, so it seemed, by using the Renaissance in the service of the Reformation.

But a great chasm separated these two men. Luther loved the truth of God's Word as that was revealed to him through his own struggles with the assurance of salvation. Therefore Luther wanted true reformation in the church, which would be a reformation in doctrine and practice. Erasmus cared little about a right knowledge of truth. He simply wanted moral reform in the Roman Catholic Church. He did not want to leave the church, but remained supportive of the Pope.

This fundamental difference points out another difference between the two men. Martin Luther was bound by the Word of God. Therefore the content of the Scripture was of utmost importance to him. But Erasmus did not hold to this same high view of Scripture. Erasmus was a Renaissance rationalist who placed reason above Scripture. Therefore the truth of Scripture was not that important to him.

The two men could not have fellowship with each other, for the two movements which they represented were antithetical to each other. The fundamental differences came out especially in the debate over the freedom of the will.

From 1517 on, the chasm between Luther and Erasmus grew. The more Luther learned about Erasmus, the less he wanted anything to do with him. Melanchthon tried to play the mediator between Luther and Erasmus with no success. But many hated Erasmus because he was so outspoken against the church. These haters of Erasmus tried to discredit him by associating him with Luther, who was outside the church by this time. Erasmus continued to deny this unity, saying he did not know much about the writings of Luther. But as Luther took a stronger stand against the doctrinal abuses of Rome, Erasmus was forced either to agree with Luther or to dissociate himself from Luther. Erasmus chose the latter.

Many factors came together which finally caused Erasmus to wield his pen against Luther. Erasmus was under constant pressure from the Pope and later the king of England to refute the views of Luther. When Luther became more outspoken against Erasmus, Erasmus finally decided to write against him. On September 1, 1524, Erasmus published his treatise On the Freedom of the Will. In December of 1525, Luther responded with The Bondage of the Will.

Packer and Johnston call The Bondage of the Will "the greatest piece of theological writing that ever came from Luther's pen."1 Although Erasmus writes with eloquence, his writing cannot compare with that of Luther the theologian. Erasmus writes as one who cares little about the subject, while Luther writes with passion and conviction, giving glory to God. In his work, Luther defends the heart of the gospel over against the Pelagian error as defended by Erasmus. This controversy is of utmost importance.

In this paper, I will summarize both sides of the controversy, looking at what each taught and defended. Secondly, I will examine the biblical approach of each man. Finally, the main issues will be pointed out and the implications of the controversy will be drawn out for the church today.

Erasmus defines free-will or free choice as "a power of the human will by which a man can apply himself to the things which lead to eternal salvation or turn away from them." By this, Erasmus means that man has voluntary or free power of himself to choose the way which leads to salvation apart from the grace of God.

Erasmus attempts to answer the question how man is saved: Is it the work of God or the work of man according to his free will? Erasmus answers that it is not one or the other. Salvation does not have to be one or the other, for God and man cooperate. On the one hand, Erasmus defines free-will, saying man can choose freely by himself, but on the other hand, he wants to retain the necessity of grace for salvation. Those who do good works by free-will do not attain the end they desire unless aided by God's grace. Therefore, in regard to salvation, man cooperates with God. Both must play their part in order for a man to be saved. Erasmus expresses it this way: "Those who support free choice nonetheless admit that a soul which is obstinate in evil cannot be softened into true repentance without the help of heavenly grace." Also, attributing all things to divine grace, Erasmus states,

And the upshot of it is that we should not arrogate anything to ourselves but attribute all things we have received to divine grace … that our will might be synergos (fellow-worker) with grace although grace is itself sufficient for all things and has no need of the assistance of any human will."

In his work On the Freedom of the Will, Erasmus defends this synergistic view of salvation. According to Erasmus, God and man, nature and grace, cooperate together in the salvation of a man. With this view of salvation, Erasmus tries to steer clear of outright Pelagianism and denies the necessity of human action which Martin Luther defends.

On the basis of an apocryphal passage (Ecclesiasticas 15:14-17), Erasmus begins his defense with the origin of free-will. Erasmus says that Adam, as he was created, had a free-will to choose good or to turn to evil. In Paradise, man's will was free and upright to choose. Adam did not depend upon the grace of God, but chose to do all things voluntarily. The question which follows is, "What happened to the will when Adam sinned; does man still retain this free-will?" Erasmus would answer, "Yes." Erasmus says that the will is born out of a man's reason. In the fall, man's reason was obscured but was not extinguished. Therefore the will, by which we choose, is depraved so that it cannot change its ways. The will serves sin. But this is qualified. Man's ability to choose freely or voluntarily is not hindered.

By this depravity of the will, Erasmus does not mean that man can do no good. Because of the fall, the will is "inclined" to evil, but can still do good. Notice, he says the will is only "inclined" to evil. Therefore the will can freely or voluntarily choose between good and evil. This is what he says in his definition: free-will is "a power of the human will by which a man can apply himself to the things which lead to eternal salvation." Not only does the human will have power, although a little power, but the will has power by which a man merits salvation.

This free choice of man is necessary according to Erasmus in order for there to be sin. In order for a man to be guilty of sin, he must be able to know the difference between good and evil, and he must be able to choose between doing good and doing evil. A man is responsible only if he has the ability to choose good or evil. If the free-will of man is taken away, Erasmus says that man ceases to be a man.

For this freedom of the will, Erasmus claims to find much support in Scripture. According to Erasmus, when Scripture speaks of "choosing," it implies that man can freely choose. Also, whenever the Scripture uses commands, threats, exhortations, blessings, and cursings, it follows that man is capable of choosing whether or not he will obey.

Erasmus defines the work of man's will by which he can freely choose after the fall. Here he makes distinctions in his idea of a "threefold kind of law" which is made up of the "law of nature, law of works, and law of faith." First, this law of nature is in all men. By this law of nature, men do good by doing to others what they would want others to do to them. Having this law of nature, all men have a knowledge of God. By this law of nature, the will can choose good, but the will in this condition is useless for salvation. Therefore more is needed. The law of works is man's choice when he hears the threats of punishment which God gives. When a man hears these threats, he either continues to forsake God, or he desires God's grace. When a man desires God's grace, he then receives the law of faith which cures the sinful inclinations of his reason. A man has this law of faith only by divine grace.

In connection with this threefold kind of law, Erasmus distinguishes between three graces of God. First, in all men, even in those who remain in sin, a grace is implanted by God. But this grace is infected by sin. This grace arouses men by a certain knowledge of God to seek Him. The second grace is peculiar grace which arouses the sinner to repent. This does not involve the abolishing of sin or justification. But rather, a man becomes "a candidate for the highest grace." By this grace offered to all men, God invites all, and the sinner must come desiring God's grace. This grace helps the will to desire God. The final grace is the concluding grace which completes what was started. This is saving grace only for those who come by their free-will. Man begins on the path to salvation, after which God completes what man started. Along with man's natural abilities according to his will, God works by His grace. This is the synergos, or cooperation, which Erasmus defends.

Erasmus defends the free-will of man with a view to meriting salvation. This brings us to the heart of the matter. Erasmus begins with the premise that a man merits salvation. In order for a man to merit salvation, he cannot be completely carried by God, but he must have a free-will by which he chooses God voluntarily. Therefore, Erasmus concludes that by the exercise of his free-will, man merits salvation with God. When man obeys, God imputes this to his merit. Therefore Erasmus says, "This surely goes to show that it is not wrong to say that man does something…." Concerning the merit of man's works, Erasmus distinguishes with the Scholastics between congruent and condign merit. The former is that which a man performs by his own strength, making him a "fit subject for the gift of internal grace." This work of man removed the barrier which keeps God from giving grace. The barrier removed is man's unworthiness for grace, which God gives only to those who are fit for it. With the gift of grace, man can do works which before he could not do. God rewards these gifts with salvation. Therefore, with the help or aid of the grace of God, a man merits eternal salvation.

Although he says a man merits salvation, Erasmus wants to say that salvation is by God's grace. In order to hold both the free-will of man and the grace of God in salvation, Erasmus tries to show the two are not opposed to each other. He says, "It is not wrong to say that man does something yet attributes the sum of all he does to God as the author." Explaining the relationship between grace and free-will, Erasmus says that the grace of God and the free-will of man, as two causes, come together in one action "in such a way, however, that grace is the principle cause and the will secondary, which can do nothing apart from the principle cause since the principle is sufficient in itself." Therefore, in regard to salvation, God and man work together. Man has a free-will, but this will cannot attain salvation of itself. The will needs a boost from grace in order to merit eternal life.

Erasmus uses many pictures to describe the relationship between works and grace. He calls grace an "advisor," "helper," and "architect." Just as the builder of a house needs the architect to show him what to do and to set him straight when he does something wrong, so also man needs the assistance of God to help him where he is lacking. The free-will of man is aided by a necessary helper: grace. Therefore Erasmus says, "as we show a boy an apple and he runs for it ... so God knocks at our soul with His grace and we willingly embrace it." In this example, we are like a boy who cannot walk. The boy wants the apple, but he needs his father to assist him in obtaining the apple. So also, we need the assistance of God's grace. Man has a free-will by which he can seek after God, but this is not enough for him to merit salvation. By embracing God's grace with his free-will, man merits God's grace so that by his free-will and the help of God's grace he merits eternal life. This is a summary of what Erasmus defends.

Erasmus also deals with the relationship of God's foreknowledge and man's free-will. On the one hand, God does what he wills, but, on the other hand, God's will does not impose anything on man's will, for then man's will would not be free or voluntary. Therefore God's foreknowledge is not determinative, but He simply knows what man will choose. Men deserve punishment from eternity simply because God knows they will not choose the good, but will choose the evil. Man can resist the ordained will of God. The only thing man cannot resist is when God wills in miracles. When God performs some "supernatural" work, this cannot be resisted by men. For example, when Jesus performed a miracle, the man whose sight returned could not refuse to be healed. According to Erasmus, because man's will is free, God's will and foreknowledge depend on man's will except when He performs miracles.

This is a summary of what Erasmus taught in his treatise On the Freedom of the Will. In response to this treatise, Luther wrote The Bondage of the Will. We turn to this book of Luther.

Martin Luther gives a thorough defense of the sovereign grace of God over against the "semi-Pelagianism" of Erasmus by going through much of Erasmus' On the Freedom of the Will phrase by phrase. Against the cooperating work of salvation defended by Erasmus, Luther attacks Erasmus at the very heart of the issue. Luther's thesis is that "free-will is a nonentity, a thing consisting of name alone" because man is a slave to sin. Therefore salvation is the sovereign work of God alone.

In the "Diatribe," Luther says, Erasmus makes no sense. It seems Erasmus speaks out of both sides of his mouth. On the one hand, he says that man's will cannot will any good, yet on the other hand, he says man has a free-will. Other contradictions also exist in Erasmus' thought. Erasmus says that man has the power to choose good, but he also says that man needs grace to do good. Opposing Erasmus, Luther rightly points out that if there is free-will, there is no need for grace. Because of these contradictions in Erasmus, Luther says Erasmus "argues like a man drunk or asleep, blurting out between snores, 'Yes,' 'No.' " Not only does this view of Erasmus not make sense, but this is not what Scripture says concerning the will of man and the grace of God.

According to Luther, Erasmus does not prove his point, namely, the idea that man with his free-will cooperates in salvation with God. Throughout his work, Luther shows that Erasmus supports and agrees with the Pelagians. In fact, Erasmus' view is more despicable than Pelagianism because he is not honest and because the grace of God is cheapened. Only a small work is needed in order for a man to merit the grace of God.

Because Erasmus does not take up the question of what man can actually do of himself as fallen in Adam, Luther takes up the question of the ability of man. Here, Luther comes to the heart of his critique of the Diatribe in which he denies free-will and shows that God must be and is sovereign in salvation. Luther's arguments follow two lines: first, he shows that man is enslaved to sin and does not have a free-will; secondly, he shows that the truth of God's sovereign rule, by which He accomplishes His will according to His counsel, is opposed to free-will.

First, Luther successfully defends the thesis that there is no such entity as free-will because the will is enslaved to sin. Luther often says there is no such thing as free-will. The will of man without the grace of God "is not free at all, but is the permanent prisoner and bondslave of evil since it cannot turn itself to good." The free-will lost its freedom in the fall so that now the will is a slave to sin. This means the will can will no good. Therefore man does and wills sin "necessarily." Luther further describes the condition of man's will when he explains a passage from Ezekiel: "It cannot but fall into a worse condition, and add to its sins despair and impenitence unless God comes straightway to its help and calls it back and raises it up by the word of His promise."

Luther makes a crucial distinction in explaining what he means when he says man sins "necessarily." This does not mean "compulsion." A man without the Spirit is not forced, kicking and screaming, to sin but voluntarily does evil. Nevertheless, because man is enslaved to sin, his will cannot change itself. He only wills or chooses to sin of himself. He cannot change this willingness of his: he wills and desires evil. Man is wholly evil, thinking nothing but evil thoughts. Therefore there is no free-will.

Because this is the condition of man, he cannot merit eternal life. The enslaved will cannot merit anything with God because it can do no good. The only thing which man deserves is eternal punishment. By this, Luther also shows that there is no free-will.

In connection with man's merit, Luther describes the true biblical uses of the law. The purpose of the law of God is not to show men how they can merit salvation, but the law is given so that men might see their sinfulness and their own unworthiness. The law condemns the works of man, for when he judges himself according to the law, man sees that he can do no good. Therefore, he is driven to the cross. The law also serves as a guide for what the believer should do. But the law does not say anything about the ability of man to obey it.

Not only should the idea of free-will be rejected because man is enslaved to sin, but also because of who God is and the relationship between God and man. A man cannot act independently of God. Analyzing what Erasmus said, Luther says that God is not God, but He is an idol, because the freedom of man rules. Everything depends on man for salvation. Therefore man can merit salvation apart from God. A God that depends on man is not God.

Denying this horrible view of Erasmus, Luther proclaims the sovereignty of God in salvation. Because God is sovereign in all things and especially in salvation, there is no free-will.

Luther begins with the fact that God alone has a free-will. This means only God can will or not will the law, gospel, sin, and death. God does not act out of necessity, but freely. He alone is independent in all He decrees and does. Therefore man cannot have a free-will by which he acts independently of God, because God is immutable, omnipotent, and sovereign over all. Luther says that God is omnipotent, knowing all. Therefore we do nothing of ourselves. We can only act according to God's infallible, immutable counsel.

The great error of free-willism is that it ascribes divinity to man's free-will. God is not God anymore. If man has a free-will, this implies God is not omnipotent, controlling all of our actions. Free-will also implies that God makes mistakes and changes. Man must then fix the mistakes. Over against this, Luther says there can be no free-will because we are under the "mastery of God." We can do nothing apart from God by our own strength because we are enslaved to sin.

Luther also understands the difficulties which follow from saying that God is sovereign so that all things happen necessarily. Luther states: "If God foreknows a thing, it necessarily happens." The problem between God's foreknowledge and man's freedom cannot be completely solved. God sovereignly decrees all things that happen, and they happen as He has decreed them necessarily. Does this mean that when a man sins, he sins because God has decreed that sin? Luther would answer, Yes. But God does not act contrary to what man is. Man cannot will good, but he only seeks after sinful lusts. The nature of man is corrupted, so that he is turned from God. But God works in men and in Satan according to what they are. The sinner is still under the control of the omnipotent God, "which means, since they are evil and perverted themselves, that when they are impelled to action by this movement of Divine omnipotence they do only that which is perverted or evil." When God works in evil men, evil results. But God is not evil. He is good. He does not do evil, but He uses evil instruments. The sin is the fault of those evil instruments and not the fault of God.

Luther asks himself the question, Why then did God let Adam fall so all men have his sin? The sovereignty of God must not be questioned, because God's will is beyond any earthly standard. Nothing is equal to God and His will. Answering the question above, Luther replies, "What God wills is not right because He ought or was bound, so to will, on the contrary, what takes place must be right because He so wills it." This is the hidden mystery of God's absolute sovereignty over all things.

God is sovereign over all things. He is sovereign in salvation. Is salvation a work of God and man? Luther answers negatively. God alone saves. Therefore salvation cannot be based on the merits of men's works. Man's obedience does not obtain salvation, according to Luther. Some become the sons of God "not by carnal birth, nor by zeal for the law, nor by any other human effort, but only by being born of God." Grace does not come by our own effort, but by the grace of Jesus Christ. To deny grace is to deny Jesus Christ. For Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Free-will says that it is the way, the truth, and the life. Therefore free-will denies Jesus Christ. This is a serious error.

God saves by His grace and Spirit in such away that the will is turned by Him. Only when the will is changed can it will and desire the good. Luther describes a struggle between God and Satan. Erasmus says man stands between God and Satan, who are as spectators waiting for man to make his choice. But Luther compares this struggle to a horse having two riders. "If God rides, it wills and goes where God goes…. If Satan rides, it wills and goes where Satan goes." The horse does not have the choice of which rider it wants. We have Satan riding us until God throws him off. In the same way, we are enslaved to sin until God breaks the power of sin. The salvation of a man depends upon the free work of God, who alone is sovereign and able to save men. Therefore this work in the will by God is a radical change whereby the willing of the soul is freed from sin. This beautiful truth stands over against Erasmus' grace, which gives man a booster shot in what he can do of himself.

This truth of the sovereignty of God in salvation is comforting to us. When man trusts in himself, he has no comfort that he is saved. Because man is enslaved to sin and because God is the sovereign, controlling all things according to His sovereign, immutable will, there is no free-will. The free-will of man does not save him. God alone saves.

The battle begins with the fundamental difference separating Luther and Erasmus in regard to the doctrine of Scripture. Erasmus defends the obscurity of Scripture. Basically, Erasmus says man cannot know with certainty many of the things in Scripture. Some things in God's Word are plain, while many are not. He applies the obscurity of Scripture to the controversy concerning the freedom of the will. In the camp of the hidden things of God, which include the hour of our death and when the last judgment will occur, Erasmus places "whether our will accomplishes anything in things pertaining to salvation." Because Scripture is unclear about these things, what one believes about these matters is not important. Erasmus did not want controversy, but he wanted peace. For him, the discussion of the hidden things is worthless because it causes the church to lose her love and unity.

Against this idea of the obscurity of Scripture, Luther defends the perspicuity of Scripture. Luther defines perspicuity as being twofold. The external word itself is clear, as that which God has written for His people. But man cannot understand this word of himself. Therefore Scripture is clear to God's people only by the work of the Holy Spirit in their hearts.

The authority of Scripture is found in God Himself. God's Word must not be measured by man, for this leads to paradoxes, of which Erasmus is a case in point. By saying Scripture is paradoxical, Erasmus denies the authority of God's Word.

Luther does not deny that some passages are difficult to understand. This is not because the Word is unclear or because the work of the Holy Spirit is weak. Rather, we do not understand some passages because of our own weakness.

If Scripture is obscure, then this opposes what God is doing in revelation. Scripture is light which reveals the truth. If it is obscure, then why did God give it to us? According to Luther, not even the difficult to understand doctrines such as the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the unpardonable sin are obscure. Therefore the issue of the freedom of the will is not obscure. If the Scripture is unclear about the doctrine of the will of man, then this doctrine is not from Scripture.

Because Scripture is clear, Luther strongly attacks Erasmus on this fundamental point. Luther says, "The Scriptures are perfectly clear in their teaching, and that by their help such a defense of our position may be made that our adversaries cannot resist." This is what Luther hoped to show to Erasmus. The teaching of Scripture is fundamental. On this point of perspicuity, Luther has Erasmus by the horns. Erasmus says Scripture is not clear on this matter of the freedom of the will, yet he appeals to the church fathers for support. The church fathers base their doctrine of the free-will on Scripture. On the basis of the perspicuity of Scripture, Luther challenges Erasmus to find even one passage that supports his view of free-will. Luther emphasizes that not one can be found.

Luther also attacks Erasmus when he says what one believes concerning the freedom of the will does not matter. Luther sums up Erasmus' position this way: "In a word, what you say comes to this: that you do not think it matters a scrap what any one believes anywhere, as long as the world is at peace." Erasmus says the knowledge of free-will is useless and non-essential. Over against this, Luther says, "then neither God, Christ, Gospel, faith, nor anything else even of Judaism, let alone Christianity, is left!" Positively, Luther says about the importance of the truth: "I hold that a solemn and vital truth, of eternal consequences, is at stake in the discussion." Luther was willing to defend the truth even to death because of its importance as that which is taught in Scripture.

A word must also be said about the differing views of the interpretation of Scripture. Erasmus was not an exegete. He was a great scholar of the languages, but this did not make him an able exegete. Erasmus does not rely on the Word of God of itself, but he turns to the church fathers and to reason for the interpretation of Scripture. In regard to the passage out of Ecclesiasticas which Erasmus uses, Luther says the dispute there is not over the teaching of Scripture, but over human reason. Erasmus generalizes from a particular case, saying that since a passage mentions willing, this must mean a man has a free-will. In this regard, Luther also says that Erasmus "fashions and refashions the words of God as he pleases." Erasmus was concerned not with what God says in His Word, but with what he wanted God to say.

Not only does Erasmus use his own reason to interpret Scripture, but following in the Roman Catholic tradition he goes back to the church fathers. His work is filled with many quotes from the church fathers' interpretation of different passages. The idea is that the church alone has the authority to interpret Scripture. Erasmus goes so far in this that Luther accuses Erasmus of placing the fathers above the inspired apostle Paul.

In contrast to Erasmus, Luther interprets Scripture with Scripture. Seeing the Word of God as inspired by the Holy Spirit, Luther also trusts in the work of the Holy Spirit to interpret that Word. One of the fundamental points of Reformed hermeneutics is that Scripture interprets Scripture. Luther follows this. When Luther deals with a passage, he does not take it out of context as Erasmus does. Instead, he examines the context and checks other passages which use the same words.

Also, Luther does not add figures or devise implications as Erasmus does. But rather, Luther sticks to the simple and plain meaning of Scripture. He says, "Everywhere we should stick to just the simple, natural meaning of the words, as yielded by the rules of grammar and the habits of speech that God has created among men." In the controversy over the bondage of the will, both the formal and material principles of the Reformation were at stake.

Now we must examine some of the important passages for each man. This is a difficult task because they both refer to so many passages. We must content ourselves with looking at those which are fundamental for the main points of the controversy.

Showing the weakness of his view of Scripture, Erasmus begins with a passage from an apocryphal book: Ecclesiasticas 15:14-17. Erasmus uses this passage to show the origin of the free will and that the will continues to be free after the fall.

Following this passage, Erasmus looks at many passages from the Old Testament to prove that man has a free-will. He turns to Genesis 4:6, 7, which records God speaking to Cain after he offered his displeasing sacrifice to God. Verse 7 says, "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door." Erasmus says that God sets before Cain a reward if he chooses the good. But if he chooses the evil, he will be punished. This implies that Cain has a will which can overcome evil and do the good.

From here, Erasmus looks at different passages using the word "choose." He says Scripture uses the word "choose" because man can freely choose. This is the only way it makes sense.

Erasmus also looks at many passages which use the word "if" in the Old Testament and also the commands of the Old Testament. For example, Isaiah 1:19,20 and 21:12 use the words "if … then." These conditions in Scripture imply that a man can do these things. Deuteronomy 30:14 is an example of a command. In this passage, Israel is commanded to love God with all their heart and soul. This command was given because Moses and the people had it in them to obey. Erasmus comes to these conclusions by implication.

Using a plethora of New Testament texts, Erasmus tries to support the idea of the freedom of the will. Once again, Erasmus appeals to those texts which speak of conditions. John 14:15 says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Also, in John 15:7 we read, "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." These passages imply that man is able to fulfill the conditions by his free-will.

Remarkably, Erasmus identifies Paul as "the champion of free choice." Referring to passages in which Paul exhorts and commands, Erasmus says that this implies the ability to obey. An example is I Corinthians 9:24,25: "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible." Man is able to obey this command because he has a free-will.

These texts can be placed together because Luther responds to them as a whole. Luther does treat many of these texts separately, but often comes back to the same point. Luther's response to Genesis 4:7 applies to all of the commands and conditions to which Erasmus refers: "Man is shown, not what he can do, but what he ought to do." Similarly, Luther responds to Deuteronomy 30:19: "It is from this passage that I derive my answer to you: that by the words of the law man is admonished and taught, not what he can do, but what he ought to do; that is, that he may know sin, not that he may believe that he has any strength." The exhortations and commands of the New Testament given through the apostle Paul are not written to show what we can do, but rather, after the gospel is preached, they encourage those justified and saved to live in the Spirit.

From these passages, Erasmus also taught that man merited salvation by his obedience or a man merited punishment by his disobedience, all of which was based on man's ability according to his free-will. Erasmus jumps from reward to merit. He does this in the conditional phrases of Scripture especially. But Luther says that merit is not proved from reward. God uses rewards in Scripture to exhort us and threaten us so that the godly persevere. Rewards are not that which a man merits.

The heart of the battle of the biblical texts is found in their treatment of passages from the book of Romans, especially Romans 9. Here, Erasmus treats Romans 9 as a passage which seems to oppose the freedom of the will but does not.

Erasmus begins his treatment of Romans 9 by considering the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. He treats this in connection with what Romans 9:18 says, "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will, he hardeneth." To interpret this passage, Erasmus turns to Jerome, who says, "God hardens when he does not at once punish the sinner and has mercy as soon as he invites repentance by means of afflictions." God's hardening and mercy are the results of what man does. God has mercy "on those who recognize the goodness of God and repent…." Also, this hardening is not something which God does, but something which Pharaoh did by not repenting. God was longsuffering to Pharaoh, not punishing him immediately, during which Pharaoh hardened his heart. God simply gave the occasion for the hardening of his heart. Therefore the blame can be placed on Pharaoh.

Although Erasmus claims to take the literal meaning of the passage, Luther is outraged at this interpretation. Luther objects:

Positively, Luther explains this hardening of the heart of Pharaoh. God does this, therefore Pharaoh's heart is necessarily hardened. But God does not do something which is opposed to the nature of Pharaoh. Pharoah is enslaved to sin. When he hears the word of God through Moses which irritates his evil will, Pharaoh's heart is hardened. Luther explains it this way:

Once again, Luther objects. Luther defends the necessity of consequence to what God decrees. Luther says, "If God foreknows a thing, it necessarily takes place." Therefore, in regard to Jacob and Esau, they did not attain their positions by their own free-will. Romans 9 emphasizes that they were not yet born and that they had not yet done good or evil. Without any works of obedience or disobedience, the one was master and the other was the servant. Jacob was rewarded not on the basis of anything he had done. Jacob was loved and Esau was hated even before the world began. Jacob loved God because God loved him. Therefore the source of salvation is not the free-will of man, but God's eternal decree. Paul is not the great champion of the freedom of the will.

In defense of the literal meaning of Romans 9:21-23, Luther shows that these verses oppose free-will as well. Luther examines the passage in the context of what Paul is saying. The emphasis in the earlier verses is not man, but what God does. He is sovereign in salvation. Here also, the emphasis is the potter. God is sovereign, almighty, and free. Man is enslaved to sin and acts out of necessity according to all God decrees. Luther shows that this is the emphasis of Romans 9 with sound exegetical work.

After refuting the texts to which Erasmus refers, Luther continues to show that Scripture denies the freedom of the will and teaches the sovereignty of God in salvation. He begins with Romans 1:18 which says, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness." Luther says this means all men are ungodly and are unrighteous. Therefore, all deserve the wrath of God. The best a man can do is evil. Referring to Romans 3:9, Luther proves the same thing. Both Jews and Greeks are all under sin. They will and do nothing but evil. Man has no power to seek after good because there is none that doeth good (Ps. 14:3). Therefore, men are "ignorant of and despise God! Here is unbelief, disobedience, sacrilege, blasphemy towards God, cruelty and mercilessness towards one's neighbors and love of self in all things of God and man." Luther's conclusion to the matter is this: man is enslaved to sin.

Man cannot obtain salvation by his works. Romans 3:20 says that by the works of the law no man can be justified in God's sight. It is impossible for a man to merit salvation by his works. Salvation must be the sovereign work of God.

Luther thunders against free-will in connection with Romans 3:21-16 which proclaims salvation by grace alone through faith.58 Free-will is opposed to faith. These are two different ways of salvation. Luther shows that a man cannot be saved by his works, therefore it must be by faith in Jesus Christ. Justification is free, of grace, and without works because man possesses no worthiness for it.

Finally, we notice that Luther points out the comprehensive terms of the apostle Paul to show that there is no free-will in man. All are sinners. There is none that is righteous, and none that doeth good. Paul uses many others also. Therefore, justification and salvation are without works and without the law.

Over against the idea of free-will stands the clear teaching of Scripture. Luther clearly exegetes God's Word to show this. In summary, the truth of predestination denies the free-will of man. Because salvation is by grace and faith, salvation is not by works. Faith and grace are of no avail if salvation is by the works of man. Also, the only thing the law works is wrath. The law displays the unworthiness, sinfulness, and guilt of man. As children of Adam we can do no good. Luther argues along these lines to show that a free-will does not exist in man. Salvation is by grace alone.

Luther is not interested in abstract theological concepts. He does not take up this debate with Erasmus on a purely intellectual level. The main issue is salvation: how does God save? Luther himself defines the issue on which the debate hinges:

So it is not irreligious, idle, or superfluous, but in the highest degree wholesome and necessary, for a Christian to know whether or not his will has anything to do in matters pertaining to salvation…. This is the hinge on which our discussion turns, the crucial issue between us.

Luther finds it necessary to investigate from Scripture what ability the will of man has and how this is related to God and His grace. If one does not know this, he does not know Christianity. Luther brings this against Erasmus because he shows no interest in the truth regarding how it is that some are saved.

Although the broad issue of the debate is how God saves, the specific issue is the sovereignty of God in salvation. The main issue for Luther is that man does not have a free-will by which he merits eternal life, but God sovereignly saves those whom He has chosen.

Luther is pursuing the question, "Is God, God?" This means, is God the omnipotent who reigns over all and who sovereignly saves, or does He depend on man? If God depends on man for anything, then He is not God. Therefore Luther asks the question of himself: Who will try to reform his life, believe, and love God? His answer, "Nobody." No man can do this of himself. He needs God. "The elect, who fear God, will be reformed by the Holy Spirit; the rest will perish unreformed." Luther defends this truth so vigorously because it is the heart of the gospel. God is the sovereign God of salvation. If salvation depends on the works of man, he cannot be saved.

Certain implications necessarily follow from the views of salvation defended by both men. First, we must consider the implications which show the falsehood of Erasmus' view of salvation.

When Erasmus speaks of merit, he is really speaking as a Pelagian. This was offensive to Erasmus because he specifically claimed that he was not a Pelagian. But Luther rightly points out that Erasmus says man merits salvation. According to the idea of merit, man performs an act separate from God, which act is the basis of salvation. He deserves a reward. This is opposed to grace. Therefore, if merit is at all involved, man saves himself. This makes Erasmus no different from the Pelagians except that the Pelagians are honest. Pelagians honestly confess that man merits eternal life. Erasmus tries to give the appearance that he is against the Pelagians although he really is a Pelagian. Packer and Johnston make this analysis:

Another implication of the synergistic view of salvation held to by Erasmus is that God is not God. Because salvation depends upon the free-will of man according to Erasmus, man ascribes divinity to himself. God is not God because He depends upon man. Man himself determines whether or not he will be saved. Therefore the study of soteriology is not the study of what God does in salvation, but soteriology is a study of what man does with God to deserve eternal life.

This means God's grace is not irresistible, but man can reject the grace of God. Man then has more power than God. God watches passively to see what man will do.

Finally, a serious implication of the view of Erasmus is that he denies salvation is found in Jesus Christ alone. In his Diatribe, Erasmus rarely mentions Jesus Christ. This shows something is wrong. This does follow from what Erasmus says. The emphasis for Erasmus is what man must do to be saved and not on what God has done in Jesus Christ. Therefore Jesus Christ is not the only way of salvation and is not that important.

Over against the implications of Erasmus' view are the orthodox implications of Luther's view. God is sovereign in salvation. God elects His people, He sent Jesus Christ, and reveals Jesus Christ only to His people. It is God who turns the enslaved wills of His people so that they seek after Him. Salvation does not depend upon the work of man in any sense.

The basis of salvation is Jesus Christ alone. Because man is enslaved to sin, He must be turned from that sin. He must be saved from that sin through the satisfaction of the justice of God. A man needs the work of Jesus Christ on the cross to be saved. A man needs the new life of Jesus Christ in order to inherit eternal life. The merits of man do not save because he merits nothing with God. A man needs the merits of Jesus Christ for eternal life. A man needs faith by which he is united to Christ.

The source of this salvation is election. God saves only those whom He elects. Those who receive that new life of Christ are those whom God has chosen. God is sovereign in salvation.

Because God is sovereign in salvation, His grace cannot be resisted. Erasmus says that the reason some do not believe is because they reject the grace which God has given to them. Luther implies that God does not show grace to all men. Instead, He saves and shows favor only to those who are His children. In them, God of necessity, efficaciously accomplishes His purpose.

Because man cannot merit eternal life, saving faith is not a work of man by which he merits anything with God. Works do not justify a man. Salvation is the work of God alone in Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit. Faith is a gift of God whereby we are united to Jesus Christ and receive the new life found in Him. Even the knowledge and confidence as the activity of faith are the gifts of faith.

Finally, only with this view of salvation that God is sovereign can a man have comfort that he will be saved. Because God is sovereign in salvation and because His counsel is immutable, we cannot fall from the grace of God. He preserves those who are His children. Erasmus could not have this comfort because he held that man determines his own salvation.

Although this controversy happened almost five hundred years ago, it is significant for the church today. The error of "semi-Pelagianism" is still alive in the church today. Much of the church world sides with Erasmus today, even among those who claim to be "Reformed." If a "Reformed" or Lutheran church denies what Luther says and sides with Erasmus, they despise the reformation of the church in the sixteenth century. They might as well go back to the Roman Catholic Church.

This controversy is important today because many deny that Jesus Christ is the only way of salvation. A man can worship heathen gods and be saved. This follows from making works the basis of salvation. Over against this error, Martin Luther proclaimed the sovereignty of God in salvation. He proclaimed Jesus Christ as the only way of salvation. We must do the same.

The error of Pelagianism attacks the church in many different forms. We have seen that in the history of the Protestant Reformed Churches. The sovereignty of God in salvation has been attacked by the errors of common grace and a conditional covenant. Over against these errors, some in the church world have remained steadfast by the grace of God. God does not love all. Nor does He show favor to all men in the preaching of gospel. Erasmus himself said that God showed grace to all men and God does not hate any man. The Arminians said the same thing at the time of the Synod of Dordt. Yet, men who defend common grace claim to be Reformed. They are not.

Also, in this synergistic view of salvation, we see the principles of the bilateral, conditional covenant view which is in many "Reformed" churches. If God and man work together in salvation, then the covenant must be a pact in which both God and man must hold up each one's end of the agreement. Over against this we must proclaim the sovereignty of God in salvation especially in regard to the covenant. The covenant is not conditional and bilateral. God works unconditionally and unilaterally in the covenant of grace.

Finally, we must apply the truth of the sovereignty of God defended by Luther to ourselves. We could say there is a Pelagian in all of us. We know God sovereignly saves, but we often show by our practice that we proudly want to sneak a few of our works in the back door. We must depend upon God for all things.

May this truth which Martin Luther defended, the truth of the sovereignty of God in salvation, be preserved in the church.

It's a grave error to assume a different God resides in the two Testaments. God accomplishes what He "desires" everyday, all day.

I agree. But I also believe it is a grave error to not recognize the two different PORTRAYALS of God in the two Testaments. We are to read the OT in light of the NT. It is a grave error to read the OT as if it contained our full revelation of Who God is.

But God does not contradict Himself.

This is not at issue. It is man reading God's Word incorrectly that is at issue. MAN who refuses to see that the OT is incomplete and imperfect are in danger of missing out on the Gospel message.

Seems Jesus was much more specific that you give Him credit for.

What are you talking about? What does John 8 prove about the Old Testament? By Jesus saying "they could not hear Him", doesn't this make it obvious that men were misinterpreting the "plain text" of the Scripture???

Salvation is not earned. Salvation is given by the free grace of our merciful God. Saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Yes, thank you. Who here disagrees with that?

Regards

I would hope that we would all agree that we all believe ALL the Bible to be the inspired word of God.

That doesn't stop some Protestants from making a "canon within a canon" by placing Romans and Galatians above and beyond what Jesus says in the Gospels so as to maintain the false idea of salvation by faith alone. As a result, verses that are from "outside" this "higher canon" get little press.

In order to reduce my error rate might I suggest you refer to Calvin's Institutes or his commentaries. While I don't agree with everything he has to say I find him to be a little more easier to read than some of the early church fathers.

I am not interested in a dead heretic's thoughts, but a live Christian's opinion. There are many more worthy things to attend to then Calvin's false presumptions. As you admit, you don't agree with everything he writes. Thus, what would be the purpose of culling through Calvin's writings to find your opinions? As to being easier to read, I think the problem is that SOME of the Church Fathers were writing to different audiences, who understood the nuances of neo-Platoism and other pagan philosphies. But many of the Fathers are pretty clear about what they write.

It would cause me greater concern if 5 Cardinals came up with 8 different interpretations and then told me that I had to live by one of them. Especially if I knew it to be wrong.

So how do you "know" you are right? Again, you appear to be claiming infallibility for yourself. It is one thing to disagree with someone, but to "know" they are wrong???

Regards

"Acquaint now thyself with Him, and be at peace: thereby good shall come unto thee." Job 22:21.

Amen, AG. The path of your faith is a glorious example of God's steady hand guiding His sheep homeward.

Work has been stressful lately, and I've spent too much time worrying. But I'm reminded that true faith means knowing, really knowing, that everything will work for our benefit and His glory.

"The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms" -- Deuteronomy 33:27

"All events are under the control of Providence; consequently all the trials of our outward life are traceable at once to the great First Cause. Out of the golden gate of God's ordinance the armies of trial march forth in array, clad in their iron armour, and armed with weapons of war. All providences are doors to trial. Even our mercies, like roses, have their thorns. Men may be drowned in seas of prosperity as well as in rivers of affliction. Our mountains are not too high, and our valleys are not too low for temptations: trials lurk on all roads. Everywhere, above and beneath, we are beset and surrounded with dangers. Yet no shower falls unpermitted from the threatening cloud; every drop has its order ere it hastens to the earth. The trials which come from God are sent to prove and strengthen our graces, and so at once to illustrate the power of divine grace, to test the genuineness of our virtues, and to add to their energy. Our Lord in His infinite wisdom and superabundant love, sets so high a value upon His people's faith that He will not screen them from those trials by which faith is strengthened. You would never have possessed the precious faith which now supports you if the trial of your faith had not been like unto fire. You are a tree that never would have rooted so well if the wind had not rocked you to and fro, and made you take firm hold upon the precious truths of the covenant grace. Worldly ease is a great foe to faith; it loosens the joints of holy valour, and snaps the sinews of sacred courage. The balloon never rises until the cords are cut; affliction doth this sharp service for believing souls. While the wheat sleeps comfortably in the husk it is useless to man, it must be threshed out of its resting place before its value can be known. Thus it is well that Jehovah trieth the righteous, for it causeth them to grow rich towards God." -- Charles Spurgeon.

My only regret is that Spurgeon wasn't a Presbyterian. 8~)

"But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.
And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ." -- Acts 5:39-442

Not worthy by our own righteousness (of which we have none), but made worthy by Christ's righteousness alone. Who can overthrow it?

... but I would point out that in the Orthodox Church, celibacy is considered to be the state in which one can most readily and perfectly draw close to God *all other things being equal.* St. Paul, again, really couldn't make this more clear, could he?

Thank you for all the additional info. I would agree that Paul did not appear to be the biggest fan of marriage. I never got the impression that Paul thought marriage was "bad", just not optimal in a spiritual sense.

Given what Catholics say about clerical celibacy, is this a matter of contention between Catholics and Orthodox, and did it play a role in the split?

(And the Orthodox Church in general discourages anyone from attempting life-long celibacy outside of the structure of a monastic life.)

Does that mean you actively encourage singles toward marriage? I ask because I know several singles in our church, some of whom are even my age, and I know that no one thinks "less" of them because of it. (I'm not saying that you do.) While we are very "pro-marriage", there is no expectation of it.

Our bishops are required to be completely celibate, and are generally drawn from the ranks of monastics, although widowers are sometimes chosen to be bishops.

Then what are the career advancement possibilities for a married priest? Are all monastics already priests, but don't "run a church"?

Given what Catholics say about clerical celibacy, is this a matter of contention between Catholics and Orthodox, and did it play a role in the split?

Yes it was, to a small extent. Frankish monks who came to Bulgaria, which was ecclesiastically under the jurisdiction of the Bishop of Constantinople, taught that the Greeks were in error for having married clergy, having long beards, and long hair, and for having "removed" the Filioque from the Creed. They came to Bulgaria because the Bulgarian king wanted to be crowned an Emperor and was shopping for a Church that would crown him, so he invited the Franks.

Incidentally, one of the reasons for the anathema given that makred the unofficial split between the east and the west in 1050 cited that Greeks refused to shave and look like the Latin priests, thereby causing disunity!

Then what are the career advancement possibilities for a married priest? Are all monastics already priests, but don't "run a church"?

Well, they are limited, of course. A priest has no power outside of a bishopric. He is bishop's assistant, lieutenant, proxy, etc. The ecclesiastical authority rests with the hishop, which was the problem with Luther's rebellion. He, as a priest, had no authority in the Church unless the bishop granted it to him.

I know this wasn't pinged to me, but I thought I would "spice" up the answer a bit. Hope none of you minds.

Evil can only be the result of the free will to reject God. If there is no free will, there is no possibility of evil, FK.

I must disagree. satan's efforts certainly lead to evil in our world. We are fooled all the time into making bad decisions. Just like with Harley's point about Eve. If Eve made an informed free will choice to disobey God, then why did Adam get all the blame? Scripture does not support, without a wild interpretation, that Eve and Mary are mirrors in the way that Adam and Christ were. Scripture is clear that sin came through only Adam. (More on your quote later.)

Thus, scripturally, there is no need to specifically qualify our will as free any more than there is a need for the Bible to specifically use the term Holy Trinity for both to be true and obvious to all (except to Calvinists).

I appreciate your position of necessity to say that an evidence of truth is that something is NOT in the Bible. :).

No, Calvinists fully believe that we must reject God. You confirmed that in the very next sentence "In fact, we're born to do it." If we are born to reject God, we do not reject God willingly. That much we agree. But once made aware of God, you continue to believe that, by virtue of our nature, we must reject Him unless He compels us otherwise. At no point do Calvinists admit that man, by virtue of his intellect, chooses God or chooses to continue to reject God.

We are born with a sin nature, through Adam. On our own, we are doomed and have no chance of salvation. No manner of intellect is enough to freely choose God on our own. If you believe that it is our intellect that makes the difference (final decision), then you believe in a man-centered theology. More power in man, less power in God. We reject that and believe in a God-centered theology. God is sovereign and He ordains the nature of the universe and all of its inhabitants (including their actions), according to His good, pleasing, and perfect will.

You say that if we are born to reject God, we do not reject God willingly. You imply that we think God forces us to sin. None of this is correct. Generally speaking, we act according to our nature. IIRC, you do not believe in the sin nature of man, but the Catholics and the rest of us do.

The sin nature IS the absolute will to reject God. It cannot be overcome on our own, and an offer is still not enough. To believe that man's intellect can overcome it is, again, a man-centered theology.

Our intellect, as opposed to our nature, to choose to sin comes into play after salvation, for sin happens, even though we have a regenerated heart, and God is not the author of evil. So, the intellect comes into play, but it is not for good. We experience our intellect working for good after salvation, but the root of it all is still God.

Now, we are born without the knowledge of God but, when God knocks (repeatedly) on our hearts, by virtue of our nature we tend to reject God, but by virtue of our intellect, we are free to either reject or accept His love, a decision we make freely because He endowed us with that freedom.

As of the post I am responding to, no one has yet to answer my question about whether this free will choice is done with full information. Does God knock on everyone's heart equally, since God loves everyone? If so, then whose intellect would choose hell over heaven? It doesn't make sense.

I look at it as I would look at an addiction. ... But help can come only when you, in your mind, freely decide, by virtue of your intellect, that the addiction (no matter how good it feels) is wrong, and wish to overcome it. You then seek help because it is impossible to overcome on one's own. It is only then that we realize that help was always there.

What percentage of addicts, do you suppose, use their intellect to decide they need help, and then accept it? Not very many, right? Is that how you see the narrow path, based on intellect? Who gives us our intellect? Doesn't God bless some more than others with intellect? Is this God's love for all?

This all goes back to my original objection to Calvinism, namely that denying free will by necessity denies the possibility of evil (and makes evil, sin, and the need for our redemption meaningless). By necessity, our actions, then, are simply an extension of God's will. Since God cannot choose evil, the fact that evil exists, proves that theory false.

No, the false part is your assertion that denying free will denies the possibility of evil. You won't distinguish between free will to do good in God's eyes, and free will to do evil. God is only good, not evil. Therefore, God can cause us to do good, whether it is in our salvation, or good works thereafter. God does not cause us to do evil, although He remains in control of all things. This view is perfectly consistent within itself.

"Thank you for all the additional info. I would agree that Paul did not appear to be the biggest fan of marriage. I never got the impression that Paul thought marriage was "bad", just not optimal in a spiritual sense."

You are right that he didn't say that marriage is bad. You are also very correct that he didn't view it as optimal in the spiritual life. This is an important distinction, since many non-Orthodox tend to look at things in black and white -- something is either great or it is a terrible sin. Things usually aren't that simple.

I would point out that a great deal of St. Paul's time discussing these matters involve issues of remarriage. He very specifically encourages widows not to remarry. The Orthodox Church just follows this. Again, as I said before, it is far easier to live a celibate life when one is older and has had more years to work on controlling the passions than it is to do so from a young age. No great mystery there. Interestingly, the Orthodox monastic tradition has tended to be to have boys/men become monastics quite young -- the theory here is that the sooner they get into the structured life of a monastic community, the easier a time they will have of it.

Starting the day at 3 AM with Midnight Office and Matins in the Church has a way of dampening the passions...

"Given what Catholics say about clerical celibacy, is this a matter of contention between Catholics and Orthodox, and did it play a role in the split?"

As annalex says, Catholic clerical celibacy is a matter of discipline, not dogma. I would say, though, that I have had a number of lengthy encounters on FR with Catholics who are followers of a new and aggressive historical school within Catholicism that states that the ancient and apostolic tradition was clerical celibacy from the earliest New Testament times -- clergy, according to this interpretation, were married, but completely stopped all sexual activity with their wives once they were ordained.

This school of thought maintains that it is the Eastern/Orthodox tradition of married clergy that is the deviation from apostolic norms. The Orthodox Church obviously maintains just the opposite (as does most Catholic scholarship).

This might not seem like much, but saying to Orthodox Christians that they are going against apostolic tradition is like throwing sand in our faces. Interestingly, some of the most vehement opposition to this school of historical thought (which arose to try to shore up Catholic clerical celibacy) has come from Uniates (Catholics who follow Eastern traditions). They have just been recovering from centuries of second-class citizenship within Catholicism, and take great exception to the implication from their western Catholic brethren that their traditions are a deviation from apostolic norms.

The Orthodox Church does not claim that universal clerical celibacy is wrong, it just maintains that it is unwise. You have to believe me when I say that there is no schadenfreude involved in the Catholic sexual abuse scandals. But we definitely look at Catholic norms and say, "what did you expect would happen?"

As I said, the standard of the Orthodox Church is that celibacy is best lived in a monastic setting. There are certainly unmarried priests serving in parishes, but they are an uncommon exception, and most are monastics that have been called to meet parish needs, or are unmarried clergy who later take on monastic vows, perhaps because they realize that this will help them.

"Does that mean you actively encourage singles toward marriage? I ask because I know several singles in our church, some of whom are even my age, and I know that no one thinks "less" of them because of it. (I'm not saying that you do.) While we are very "pro-marriage", there is no expectation of it."

In "the old countries," celibacy outside of monastic settings is relatively uncommon. I remember having a friend tell me that he talking to his father-confessor after confession, and his father-confessor said "so what are you going to do? Get married or become a monastic? It is not good for man to live alone." He is now married, quite happily. So yes, there is definitely some pressure to marry, primarily because of acknowledging how difficult it is to live a chaste life outside of marriage or monasticism. In practice the expectations come from families and the old match-making women.

"...what are the career advancement possibilities for a married priest? Are all monastics already priests, but don't "run a church"?"

Two separate questions. A married priest can become the dean of a diocese or the chancellor or an archdiocese/metropolia (i.e. be the bishop's right-hand guy in administrative matters.) But that's it. A priest shouldn't be thinking in terms of career advancement, anyway (not that that stops some of them.) Being a priest is a responsibility and a service, not a perk or honor.

Sacramentally, bishops are to be unmarried, although this is a matter of discipline that wasn't put into formal canons until the Council in Trullo, relatively late.

The ideal is for a bishop to be an experienced monastic. As an experienced monastic, he will have the tools (and wisdom that comes with age) needed to deal with living a celibate life out in the world (which is where bishops have to live and work to care for their flocks.) The responsibilities of a bishop are huge. It would be very difficult to be a good bishop and be married. It would also put the priest's wives into competition with each other and introduce a level of competition between priests that is just unhealthy.

In Orthodox monasticism, very few monks are ordained clergy. A monastery will have as many ordained clergy as are necessary to serve the full cycle of services, and no more. Being a priest is a service, not a privilege. Good monastics don't *want* to be ordained, and tend to avoid it, since it has a tendency to distract from the prayer and ascetic life of a monastic. They view themselves as having given up something to become priests.

[From your hypothetical:] Pat the Protestant recites the Sinner's Prayer, very fervently, in December of 2000. She has no doubt in her mind that she is saved, that the "blood of Christ" has covered her sins and she is now of the elect. She walks strongly in the Lord's ways, growing in sanctification. She [continues and does everything I, Forest, would expect to see from someone of the truly elect.]

Well, this continues for several more years. She reads the Bible daily, is active at her community, attends Bible studies and is becoming more Christ-like. To all people, especially herself, Pat is DEFINITELY of the elect. She volunteers to be a missionary in a foreign country. She [has a terrible experience, witnessing death and disease, she falls away, and effectively turns her back on God.]

My question to you addresses the failure of your theology. During those five years of Christianity, Pat was considered by ALL to be of the elect. She showed the fruit of being elect. She had a firm belief in the Lord, was knowledgeable about Scriptures, and gave of herself to others. (bolded emphasis added)

Before I answer, I just want to say that I am not answering on behalf of all Protestants. As Harley and Stripes have both pointed out, my view and Harley's are in the minority among Protestants.

First, as to the sections I bolded, we would never, ever, say that. We might "think" it, as you do of yourself, but we would never presume about another person. There is no scripture I am aware of that gives us assurance about other people.

Second, I have never met, or even heard of, someone like Pat before. I have heard of people who appeared like Pat, but that is very different. If you are presuming for the sake of your hypo that she really DID "walk strongly in the Lord", did actually grow in her sanctification, read the Bible in earnest daily, really did become more Christ-like, showed true fruit, had a firm belief in the Lord, etc., then I would say that Pat is an impossibility. Who on earth could possibly know if any of those things you listed was really, actually true of Pat other than herself? No one. Remember my Billy Graham story? He called out to pastors to come forward at the invitation. He knew that outward appearances had nothing necessarily to do with the true inward heart. The Pat of your hypo doesn't really exist.

It was clear that God HAD TO BE WORKING IN HER! And here is the crux of the matter : WHAT CAUSED PAT TO CHANGE SO MUCH DURING THOSE FIVE YEARS?

It could only be clear to you as the author of the hypo. Lost people do deeds we normally would consider "good" all the time. But it is not righteousness to them. Lost people who are drug addicts go into rehab, get straight, and are reunited with their families. They undergo a huge change. Good for them! Really. But it does not count towards heaven in God's eyes. They are still lost. The same happens on the opposite side of the tracks.

"She never was saved to begin with" is plain dishonest and shows the fallacy of claiming to BE of the elect forever. All of our conversation returns to this presumption. All Scripture you give me. It is meant for the elect - however, we cannot KNOW we will be elect until judgment day.

It is not dishonest, it is what the scripture says. As I said, the Pat of your hypo does not exist. In the real world you cannot assume all those qualities about her as another person. You see evidence, just as you do within yourself, but even with yourself, you are unsure. We say we can be sure about ourselves, but not other people. AND, if all the scripture you were given is only for the elect, and no one can know if he is of the elect until after death, then what use is any of it to anyone TODAY? If we can snatch ourselves out of God's hands, then what use is it to try to live up to any standards, if, as you say, it could all be gone in a heartbeat 5 years down the road, if there is no reason to have confidence?

I would also like to address another of your faulty religious beliefs that contradict itself:

You wrote : "I'm not sure what part of my paragraph you find contradictory. ... we are saved by grace through faith alone. ... no one on my side believes that we enter heaven without love."

Well, I don't understand how I can make this any clearer to you, but you contradict yourself... Either you are saved by faith alone, or you are saved by faith WITH love. If you have faith ALONE, then you don't have love. One can have faith WITHOUT love. Read James 2, for example, and see the character who has faith without love.

Sorry, no contradiction here. :) Why do you reject the truth that real faith comes with real love for God? James 2 refers to a false faith. But, I suppose you need that passage to separate faith from love so that the love can only come from within us, independently of God. James 2 is talking about all the people who were never saved to begin with. It is a claimed and false faith. My view of God is one who provides fully for His children. Your view of God appears to be of one who gives His children half a meal, and then tells them to go out and scrounge for the rest. :)

"In "the old countries," celibacy outside of monastic settings is relatively uncommon."

Traditionally, this is true, but I have noticed over the past 15 years or so that it is becoming more common with people in their thirties being unmarried. Frankly they seem a bit sad and there is definite pressure to get married. It is more common among professional people than otherwise and there is a certain deperation among most of them after they hit, say, 30+. Monasticism is still considered a viable option for these people. I saw this in my own family over there but we've got all but two of them married off now, and one of those became a nun. :)

"So yes, there is definitely some pressure to marry, primarily because of acknowledging how difficult it is to live a chaste life outside of marriage or monasticism. In practice the expectations come from families and the old match-making women."

And match-making old men? :) Contrary to popular Western belief, sometimes such matchmaking is a good thing. Older, married people have the knowledge to spot a good match in terms of compatible personalities/mindsets, family backgrounds, and here, religious belief. Lets face it, being married is better than not being married, at least for those of us not headed for a monastery and a good spouse who brings strengths to the marriage which might be lacking in the other party helps in making for a good family and married life. In our community this sort of thing goes on almost continually and there is a great prayer component in all of it.

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