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Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will
Protestant Reformed Theological Journal ^ | April 1999 | Garrett J. Eriks

Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD

Introduction

At the time of the Reformation, many hoped Martin Luther and Erasmus could unite against the errors of the Roman Catholic Church. Luther himself was tempted to unite with Erasmus because Erasmus was a great Renaissance scholar who studied the classics and the Greek New Testament. Examining the Roman Catholic Church, Erasmus was infuriated with the abuses in the Roman Catholic Church, especially those of the clergy. These abuses are vividly described in the satire of his book, The Praise of Folly. Erasmus called for reform in the Roman Catholic Church. Erasmus could have been a great help to the Reformation, so it seemed, by using the Renaissance in the service of the Reformation.

But a great chasm separated these two men. Luther loved the truth of God's Word as that was revealed to him through his own struggles with the assurance of salvation. Therefore Luther wanted true reformation in the church, which would be a reformation in doctrine and practice. Erasmus cared little about a right knowledge of truth. He simply wanted moral reform in the Roman Catholic Church. He did not want to leave the church, but remained supportive of the Pope.

This fundamental difference points out another difference between the two men. Martin Luther was bound by the Word of God. Therefore the content of the Scripture was of utmost importance to him. But Erasmus did not hold to this same high view of Scripture. Erasmus was a Renaissance rationalist who placed reason above Scripture. Therefore the truth of Scripture was not that important to him.

The two men could not have fellowship with each other, for the two movements which they represented were antithetical to each other. The fundamental differences came out especially in the debate over the freedom of the will.

From 1517 on, the chasm between Luther and Erasmus grew. The more Luther learned about Erasmus, the less he wanted anything to do with him. Melanchthon tried to play the mediator between Luther and Erasmus with no success. But many hated Erasmus because he was so outspoken against the church. These haters of Erasmus tried to discredit him by associating him with Luther, who was outside the church by this time. Erasmus continued to deny this unity, saying he did not know much about the writings of Luther. But as Luther took a stronger stand against the doctrinal abuses of Rome, Erasmus was forced either to agree with Luther or to dissociate himself from Luther. Erasmus chose the latter.

Many factors came together which finally caused Erasmus to wield his pen against Luther. Erasmus was under constant pressure from the Pope and later the king of England to refute the views of Luther. When Luther became more outspoken against Erasmus, Erasmus finally decided to write against him. On September 1, 1524, Erasmus published his treatise On the Freedom of the Will. In December of 1525, Luther responded with The Bondage of the Will.

Packer and Johnston call The Bondage of the Will "the greatest piece of theological writing that ever came from Luther's pen."1 Although Erasmus writes with eloquence, his writing cannot compare with that of Luther the theologian. Erasmus writes as one who cares little about the subject, while Luther writes with passion and conviction, giving glory to God. In his work, Luther defends the heart of the gospel over against the Pelagian error as defended by Erasmus. This controversy is of utmost importance.

In this paper, I will summarize both sides of the controversy, looking at what each taught and defended. Secondly, I will examine the biblical approach of each man. Finally, the main issues will be pointed out and the implications of the controversy will be drawn out for the church today.

Erasmus On the Freedom of the Will

Erasmus defines free-will or free choice as "a power of the human will by which a man can apply himself to the things which lead to eternal salvation or turn away from them." By this, Erasmus means that man has voluntary or free power of himself to choose the way which leads to salvation apart from the grace of God.

Erasmus attempts to answer the question how man is saved: Is it the work of God or the work of man according to his free will? Erasmus answers that it is not one or the other. Salvation does not have to be one or the other, for God and man cooperate. On the one hand, Erasmus defines free-will, saying man can choose freely by himself, but on the other hand, he wants to retain the necessity of grace for salvation. Those who do good works by free-will do not attain the end they desire unless aided by God's grace. Therefore, in regard to salvation, man cooperates with God. Both must play their part in order for a man to be saved. Erasmus expresses it this way: "Those who support free choice nonetheless admit that a soul which is obstinate in evil cannot be softened into true repentance without the help of heavenly grace." Also, attributing all things to divine grace, Erasmus states,

And the upshot of it is that we should not arrogate anything to ourselves but attribute all things we have received to divine grace … that our will might be synergos (fellow-worker) with grace although grace is itself sufficient for all things and has no need of the assistance of any human will."

In his work On the Freedom of the Will, Erasmus defends this synergistic view of salvation. According to Erasmus, God and man, nature and grace, cooperate together in the salvation of a man. With this view of salvation, Erasmus tries to steer clear of outright Pelagianism and denies the necessity of human action which Martin Luther defends.

On the basis of an apocryphal passage (Ecclesiasticas 15:14-17), Erasmus begins his defense with the origin of free-will. Erasmus says that Adam, as he was created, had a free-will to choose good or to turn to evil. In Paradise, man's will was free and upright to choose. Adam did not depend upon the grace of God, but chose to do all things voluntarily. The question which follows is, "What happened to the will when Adam sinned; does man still retain this free-will?" Erasmus would answer, "Yes." Erasmus says that the will is born out of a man's reason. In the fall, man's reason was obscured but was not extinguished. Therefore the will, by which we choose, is depraved so that it cannot change its ways. The will serves sin. But this is qualified. Man's ability to choose freely or voluntarily is not hindered.

By this depravity of the will, Erasmus does not mean that man can do no good. Because of the fall, the will is "inclined" to evil, but can still do good. Notice, he says the will is only "inclined" to evil. Therefore the will can freely or voluntarily choose between good and evil. This is what he says in his definition: free-will is "a power of the human will by which a man can apply himself to the things which lead to eternal salvation." Not only does the human will have power, although a little power, but the will has power by which a man merits salvation.

This free choice of man is necessary according to Erasmus in order for there to be sin. In order for a man to be guilty of sin, he must be able to know the difference between good and evil, and he must be able to choose between doing good and doing evil. A man is responsible only if he has the ability to choose good or evil. If the free-will of man is taken away, Erasmus says that man ceases to be a man.

For this freedom of the will, Erasmus claims to find much support in Scripture. According to Erasmus, when Scripture speaks of "choosing," it implies that man can freely choose. Also, whenever the Scripture uses commands, threats, exhortations, blessings, and cursings, it follows that man is capable of choosing whether or not he will obey.

Erasmus defines the work of man's will by which he can freely choose after the fall. Here he makes distinctions in his idea of a "threefold kind of law" which is made up of the "law of nature, law of works, and law of faith." First, this law of nature is in all men. By this law of nature, men do good by doing to others what they would want others to do to them. Having this law of nature, all men have a knowledge of God. By this law of nature, the will can choose good, but the will in this condition is useless for salvation. Therefore more is needed. The law of works is man's choice when he hears the threats of punishment which God gives. When a man hears these threats, he either continues to forsake God, or he desires God's grace. When a man desires God's grace, he then receives the law of faith which cures the sinful inclinations of his reason. A man has this law of faith only by divine grace.

In connection with this threefold kind of law, Erasmus distinguishes between three graces of God. First, in all men, even in those who remain in sin, a grace is implanted by God. But this grace is infected by sin. This grace arouses men by a certain knowledge of God to seek Him. The second grace is peculiar grace which arouses the sinner to repent. This does not involve the abolishing of sin or justification. But rather, a man becomes "a candidate for the highest grace." By this grace offered to all men, God invites all, and the sinner must come desiring God's grace. This grace helps the will to desire God. The final grace is the concluding grace which completes what was started. This is saving grace only for those who come by their free-will. Man begins on the path to salvation, after which God completes what man started. Along with man's natural abilities according to his will, God works by His grace. This is the synergos, or cooperation, which Erasmus defends.

Erasmus defends the free-will of man with a view to meriting salvation. This brings us to the heart of the matter. Erasmus begins with the premise that a man merits salvation. In order for a man to merit salvation, he cannot be completely carried by God, but he must have a free-will by which he chooses God voluntarily. Therefore, Erasmus concludes that by the exercise of his free-will, man merits salvation with God. When man obeys, God imputes this to his merit. Therefore Erasmus says, "This surely goes to show that it is not wrong to say that man does something…." Concerning the merit of man's works, Erasmus distinguishes with the Scholastics between congruent and condign merit. The former is that which a man performs by his own strength, making him a "fit subject for the gift of internal grace." This work of man removed the barrier which keeps God from giving grace. The barrier removed is man's unworthiness for grace, which God gives only to those who are fit for it. With the gift of grace, man can do works which before he could not do. God rewards these gifts with salvation. Therefore, with the help or aid of the grace of God, a man merits eternal salvation.

Although he says a man merits salvation, Erasmus wants to say that salvation is by God's grace. In order to hold both the free-will of man and the grace of God in salvation, Erasmus tries to show the two are not opposed to each other. He says, "It is not wrong to say that man does something yet attributes the sum of all he does to God as the author." Explaining the relationship between grace and free-will, Erasmus says that the grace of God and the free-will of man, as two causes, come together in one action "in such a way, however, that grace is the principle cause and the will secondary, which can do nothing apart from the principle cause since the principle is sufficient in itself." Therefore, in regard to salvation, God and man work together. Man has a free-will, but this will cannot attain salvation of itself. The will needs a boost from grace in order to merit eternal life.

Erasmus uses many pictures to describe the relationship between works and grace. He calls grace an "advisor," "helper," and "architect." Just as the builder of a house needs the architect to show him what to do and to set him straight when he does something wrong, so also man needs the assistance of God to help him where he is lacking. The free-will of man is aided by a necessary helper: grace. Therefore Erasmus says, "as we show a boy an apple and he runs for it ... so God knocks at our soul with His grace and we willingly embrace it." In this example, we are like a boy who cannot walk. The boy wants the apple, but he needs his father to assist him in obtaining the apple. So also, we need the assistance of God's grace. Man has a free-will by which he can seek after God, but this is not enough for him to merit salvation. By embracing God's grace with his free-will, man merits God's grace so that by his free-will and the help of God's grace he merits eternal life. This is a summary of what Erasmus defends.

Erasmus also deals with the relationship of God's foreknowledge and man's free-will. On the one hand, God does what he wills, but, on the other hand, God's will does not impose anything on man's will, for then man's will would not be free or voluntary. Therefore God's foreknowledge is not determinative, but He simply knows what man will choose. Men deserve punishment from eternity simply because God knows they will not choose the good, but will choose the evil. Man can resist the ordained will of God. The only thing man cannot resist is when God wills in miracles. When God performs some "supernatural" work, this cannot be resisted by men. For example, when Jesus performed a miracle, the man whose sight returned could not refuse to be healed. According to Erasmus, because man's will is free, God's will and foreknowledge depend on man's will except when He performs miracles.

This is a summary of what Erasmus taught in his treatise On the Freedom of the Will. In response to this treatise, Luther wrote The Bondage of the Will. We turn to this book of Luther.

Luther's Arguments Against Erasmus

Martin Luther gives a thorough defense of the sovereign grace of God over against the "semi-Pelagianism" of Erasmus by going through much of Erasmus' On the Freedom of the Will phrase by phrase. Against the cooperating work of salvation defended by Erasmus, Luther attacks Erasmus at the very heart of the issue. Luther's thesis is that "free-will is a nonentity, a thing consisting of name alone" because man is a slave to sin. Therefore salvation is the sovereign work of God alone.

In the "Diatribe," Luther says, Erasmus makes no sense. It seems Erasmus speaks out of both sides of his mouth. On the one hand, he says that man's will cannot will any good, yet on the other hand, he says man has a free-will. Other contradictions also exist in Erasmus' thought. Erasmus says that man has the power to choose good, but he also says that man needs grace to do good. Opposing Erasmus, Luther rightly points out that if there is free-will, there is no need for grace. Because of these contradictions in Erasmus, Luther says Erasmus "argues like a man drunk or asleep, blurting out between snores, 'Yes,' 'No.' " Not only does this view of Erasmus not make sense, but this is not what Scripture says concerning the will of man and the grace of God.

According to Luther, Erasmus does not prove his point, namely, the idea that man with his free-will cooperates in salvation with God. Throughout his work, Luther shows that Erasmus supports and agrees with the Pelagians. In fact, Erasmus' view is more despicable than Pelagianism because he is not honest and because the grace of God is cheapened. Only a small work is needed in order for a man to merit the grace of God.

Because Erasmus does not take up the question of what man can actually do of himself as fallen in Adam, Luther takes up the question of the ability of man. Here, Luther comes to the heart of his critique of the Diatribe in which he denies free-will and shows that God must be and is sovereign in salvation. Luther's arguments follow two lines: first, he shows that man is enslaved to sin and does not have a free-will; secondly, he shows that the truth of God's sovereign rule, by which He accomplishes His will according to His counsel, is opposed to free-will.

First, Luther successfully defends the thesis that there is no such entity as free-will because the will is enslaved to sin. Luther often says there is no such thing as free-will. The will of man without the grace of God "is not free at all, but is the permanent prisoner and bondslave of evil since it cannot turn itself to good." The free-will lost its freedom in the fall so that now the will is a slave to sin. This means the will can will no good. Therefore man does and wills sin "necessarily." Luther further describes the condition of man's will when he explains a passage from Ezekiel: "It cannot but fall into a worse condition, and add to its sins despair and impenitence unless God comes straightway to its help and calls it back and raises it up by the word of His promise."

Luther makes a crucial distinction in explaining what he means when he says man sins "necessarily." This does not mean "compulsion." A man without the Spirit is not forced, kicking and screaming, to sin but voluntarily does evil. Nevertheless, because man is enslaved to sin, his will cannot change itself. He only wills or chooses to sin of himself. He cannot change this willingness of his: he wills and desires evil. Man is wholly evil, thinking nothing but evil thoughts. Therefore there is no free-will.

Because this is the condition of man, he cannot merit eternal life. The enslaved will cannot merit anything with God because it can do no good. The only thing which man deserves is eternal punishment. By this, Luther also shows that there is no free-will.

In connection with man's merit, Luther describes the true biblical uses of the law. The purpose of the law of God is not to show men how they can merit salvation, but the law is given so that men might see their sinfulness and their own unworthiness. The law condemns the works of man, for when he judges himself according to the law, man sees that he can do no good. Therefore, he is driven to the cross. The law also serves as a guide for what the believer should do. But the law does not say anything about the ability of man to obey it.

Not only should the idea of free-will be rejected because man is enslaved to sin, but also because of who God is and the relationship between God and man. A man cannot act independently of God. Analyzing what Erasmus said, Luther says that God is not God, but He is an idol, because the freedom of man rules. Everything depends on man for salvation. Therefore man can merit salvation apart from God. A God that depends on man is not God.

Denying this horrible view of Erasmus, Luther proclaims the sovereignty of God in salvation. Because God is sovereign in all things and especially in salvation, there is no free-will.

Luther begins with the fact that God alone has a free-will. This means only God can will or not will the law, gospel, sin, and death. God does not act out of necessity, but freely. He alone is independent in all He decrees and does. Therefore man cannot have a free-will by which he acts independently of God, because God is immutable, omnipotent, and sovereign over all. Luther says that God is omnipotent, knowing all. Therefore we do nothing of ourselves. We can only act according to God's infallible, immutable counsel.

The great error of free-willism is that it ascribes divinity to man's free-will. God is not God anymore. If man has a free-will, this implies God is not omnipotent, controlling all of our actions. Free-will also implies that God makes mistakes and changes. Man must then fix the mistakes. Over against this, Luther says there can be no free-will because we are under the "mastery of God." We can do nothing apart from God by our own strength because we are enslaved to sin.

Luther also understands the difficulties which follow from saying that God is sovereign so that all things happen necessarily. Luther states: "If God foreknows a thing, it necessarily happens." The problem between God's foreknowledge and man's freedom cannot be completely solved. God sovereignly decrees all things that happen, and they happen as He has decreed them necessarily. Does this mean that when a man sins, he sins because God has decreed that sin? Luther would answer, Yes. But God does not act contrary to what man is. Man cannot will good, but he only seeks after sinful lusts. The nature of man is corrupted, so that he is turned from God. But God works in men and in Satan according to what they are. The sinner is still under the control of the omnipotent God, "which means, since they are evil and perverted themselves, that when they are impelled to action by this movement of Divine omnipotence they do only that which is perverted or evil." When God works in evil men, evil results. But God is not evil. He is good. He does not do evil, but He uses evil instruments. The sin is the fault of those evil instruments and not the fault of God.

Luther asks himself the question, Why then did God let Adam fall so all men have his sin? The sovereignty of God must not be questioned, because God's will is beyond any earthly standard. Nothing is equal to God and His will. Answering the question above, Luther replies, "What God wills is not right because He ought or was bound, so to will, on the contrary, what takes place must be right because He so wills it." This is the hidden mystery of God's absolute sovereignty over all things.

God is sovereign over all things. He is sovereign in salvation. Is salvation a work of God and man? Luther answers negatively. God alone saves. Therefore salvation cannot be based on the merits of men's works. Man's obedience does not obtain salvation, according to Luther. Some become the sons of God "not by carnal birth, nor by zeal for the law, nor by any other human effort, but only by being born of God." Grace does not come by our own effort, but by the grace of Jesus Christ. To deny grace is to deny Jesus Christ. For Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Free-will says that it is the way, the truth, and the life. Therefore free-will denies Jesus Christ. This is a serious error.

God saves by His grace and Spirit in such away that the will is turned by Him. Only when the will is changed can it will and desire the good. Luther describes a struggle between God and Satan. Erasmus says man stands between God and Satan, who are as spectators waiting for man to make his choice. But Luther compares this struggle to a horse having two riders. "If God rides, it wills and goes where God goes…. If Satan rides, it wills and goes where Satan goes." The horse does not have the choice of which rider it wants. We have Satan riding us until God throws him off. In the same way, we are enslaved to sin until God breaks the power of sin. The salvation of a man depends upon the free work of God, who alone is sovereign and able to save men. Therefore this work in the will by God is a radical change whereby the willing of the soul is freed from sin. This beautiful truth stands over against Erasmus' grace, which gives man a booster shot in what he can do of himself.

This truth of the sovereignty of God in salvation is comforting to us. When man trusts in himself, he has no comfort that he is saved. Because man is enslaved to sin and because God is the sovereign, controlling all things according to His sovereign, immutable will, there is no free-will. The free-will of man does not save him. God alone saves.

The Battle of the Biblical Texts

The battle begins with the fundamental difference separating Luther and Erasmus in regard to the doctrine of Scripture. Erasmus defends the obscurity of Scripture. Basically, Erasmus says man cannot know with certainty many of the things in Scripture. Some things in God's Word are plain, while many are not. He applies the obscurity of Scripture to the controversy concerning the freedom of the will. In the camp of the hidden things of God, which include the hour of our death and when the last judgment will occur, Erasmus places "whether our will accomplishes anything in things pertaining to salvation." Because Scripture is unclear about these things, what one believes about these matters is not important. Erasmus did not want controversy, but he wanted peace. For him, the discussion of the hidden things is worthless because it causes the church to lose her love and unity.

Against this idea of the obscurity of Scripture, Luther defends the perspicuity of Scripture. Luther defines perspicuity as being twofold. The external word itself is clear, as that which God has written for His people. But man cannot understand this word of himself. Therefore Scripture is clear to God's people only by the work of the Holy Spirit in their hearts.

The authority of Scripture is found in God Himself. God's Word must not be measured by man, for this leads to paradoxes, of which Erasmus is a case in point. By saying Scripture is paradoxical, Erasmus denies the authority of God's Word.

Luther does not deny that some passages are difficult to understand. This is not because the Word is unclear or because the work of the Holy Spirit is weak. Rather, we do not understand some passages because of our own weakness.

If Scripture is obscure, then this opposes what God is doing in revelation. Scripture is light which reveals the truth. If it is obscure, then why did God give it to us? According to Luther, not even the difficult to understand doctrines such as the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the unpardonable sin are obscure. Therefore the issue of the freedom of the will is not obscure. If the Scripture is unclear about the doctrine of the will of man, then this doctrine is not from Scripture.

Because Scripture is clear, Luther strongly attacks Erasmus on this fundamental point. Luther says, "The Scriptures are perfectly clear in their teaching, and that by their help such a defense of our position may be made that our adversaries cannot resist." This is what Luther hoped to show to Erasmus. The teaching of Scripture is fundamental. On this point of perspicuity, Luther has Erasmus by the horns. Erasmus says Scripture is not clear on this matter of the freedom of the will, yet he appeals to the church fathers for support. The church fathers base their doctrine of the free-will on Scripture. On the basis of the perspicuity of Scripture, Luther challenges Erasmus to find even one passage that supports his view of free-will. Luther emphasizes that not one can be found.

Luther also attacks Erasmus when he says what one believes concerning the freedom of the will does not matter. Luther sums up Erasmus' position this way: "In a word, what you say comes to this: that you do not think it matters a scrap what any one believes anywhere, as long as the world is at peace." Erasmus says the knowledge of free-will is useless and non-essential. Over against this, Luther says, "then neither God, Christ, Gospel, faith, nor anything else even of Judaism, let alone Christianity, is left!" Positively, Luther says about the importance of the truth: "I hold that a solemn and vital truth, of eternal consequences, is at stake in the discussion." Luther was willing to defend the truth even to death because of its importance as that which is taught in Scripture.

A word must also be said about the differing views of the interpretation of Scripture. Erasmus was not an exegete. He was a great scholar of the languages, but this did not make him an able exegete. Erasmus does not rely on the Word of God of itself, but he turns to the church fathers and to reason for the interpretation of Scripture. In regard to the passage out of Ecclesiasticas which Erasmus uses, Luther says the dispute there is not over the teaching of Scripture, but over human reason. Erasmus generalizes from a particular case, saying that since a passage mentions willing, this must mean a man has a free-will. In this regard, Luther also says that Erasmus "fashions and refashions the words of God as he pleases." Erasmus was concerned not with what God says in His Word, but with what he wanted God to say.

Not only does Erasmus use his own reason to interpret Scripture, but following in the Roman Catholic tradition he goes back to the church fathers. His work is filled with many quotes from the church fathers' interpretation of different passages. The idea is that the church alone has the authority to interpret Scripture. Erasmus goes so far in this that Luther accuses Erasmus of placing the fathers above the inspired apostle Paul.

In contrast to Erasmus, Luther interprets Scripture with Scripture. Seeing the Word of God as inspired by the Holy Spirit, Luther also trusts in the work of the Holy Spirit to interpret that Word. One of the fundamental points of Reformed hermeneutics is that Scripture interprets Scripture. Luther follows this. When Luther deals with a passage, he does not take it out of context as Erasmus does. Instead, he examines the context and checks other passages which use the same words.

Also, Luther does not add figures or devise implications as Erasmus does. But rather, Luther sticks to the simple and plain meaning of Scripture. He says, "Everywhere we should stick to just the simple, natural meaning of the words, as yielded by the rules of grammar and the habits of speech that God has created among men." In the controversy over the bondage of the will, both the formal and material principles of the Reformation were at stake.

Now we must examine some of the important passages for each man. This is a difficult task because they both refer to so many passages. We must content ourselves with looking at those which are fundamental for the main points of the controversy.

Showing the weakness of his view of Scripture, Erasmus begins with a passage from an apocryphal book: Ecclesiasticas 15:14-17. Erasmus uses this passage to show the origin of the free will and that the will continues to be free after the fall.

Following this passage, Erasmus looks at many passages from the Old Testament to prove that man has a free-will. He turns to Genesis 4:6, 7, which records God speaking to Cain after he offered his displeasing sacrifice to God. Verse 7 says, "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door." Erasmus says that God sets before Cain a reward if he chooses the good. But if he chooses the evil, he will be punished. This implies that Cain has a will which can overcome evil and do the good.

From here, Erasmus looks at different passages using the word "choose." He says Scripture uses the word "choose" because man can freely choose. This is the only way it makes sense.

Erasmus also looks at many passages which use the word "if" in the Old Testament and also the commands of the Old Testament. For example, Isaiah 1:19,20 and 21:12 use the words "if … then." These conditions in Scripture imply that a man can do these things. Deuteronomy 30:14 is an example of a command. In this passage, Israel is commanded to love God with all their heart and soul. This command was given because Moses and the people had it in them to obey. Erasmus comes to these conclusions by implication.

Using a plethora of New Testament texts, Erasmus tries to support the idea of the freedom of the will. Once again, Erasmus appeals to those texts which speak of conditions. John 14:15 says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Also, in John 15:7 we read, "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." These passages imply that man is able to fulfill the conditions by his free-will.

Remarkably, Erasmus identifies Paul as "the champion of free choice." Referring to passages in which Paul exhorts and commands, Erasmus says that this implies the ability to obey. An example is I Corinthians 9:24,25: "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible." Man is able to obey this command because he has a free-will.

These texts can be placed together because Luther responds to them as a whole. Luther does treat many of these texts separately, but often comes back to the same point. Luther's response to Genesis 4:7 applies to all of the commands and conditions to which Erasmus refers: "Man is shown, not what he can do, but what he ought to do." Similarly, Luther responds to Deuteronomy 30:19: "It is from this passage that I derive my answer to you: that by the words of the law man is admonished and taught, not what he can do, but what he ought to do; that is, that he may know sin, not that he may believe that he has any strength." The exhortations and commands of the New Testament given through the apostle Paul are not written to show what we can do, but rather, after the gospel is preached, they encourage those justified and saved to live in the Spirit.

From these passages, Erasmus also taught that man merited salvation by his obedience or a man merited punishment by his disobedience, all of which was based on man's ability according to his free-will. Erasmus jumps from reward to merit. He does this in the conditional phrases of Scripture especially. But Luther says that merit is not proved from reward. God uses rewards in Scripture to exhort us and threaten us so that the godly persevere. Rewards are not that which a man merits.

The heart of the battle of the biblical texts is found in their treatment of passages from the book of Romans, especially Romans 9. Here, Erasmus treats Romans 9 as a passage which seems to oppose the freedom of the will but does not.

Erasmus begins his treatment of Romans 9 by considering the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. He treats this in connection with what Romans 9:18 says, "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will, he hardeneth." To interpret this passage, Erasmus turns to Jerome, who says, "God hardens when he does not at once punish the sinner and has mercy as soon as he invites repentance by means of afflictions." God's hardening and mercy are the results of what man does. God has mercy "on those who recognize the goodness of God and repent…." Also, this hardening is not something which God does, but something which Pharaoh did by not repenting. God was longsuffering to Pharaoh, not punishing him immediately, during which Pharaoh hardened his heart. God simply gave the occasion for the hardening of his heart. Therefore the blame can be placed on Pharaoh.

Although Erasmus claims to take the literal meaning of the passage, Luther is outraged at this interpretation. Luther objects:

Showing the absurdity of what Erasmus says, Luther says that this view means that God shows mercy when He sends Israel into captivity because then they are invited to repent; but when Israel is brought back from captivity, He hardens them by giving them the opportunity of hardening in His longsuffering. This is "topsy-turvy."

Positively, Luther explains this hardening of the heart of Pharaoh. God does this, therefore Pharaoh's heart is necessarily hardened. But God does not do something which is opposed to the nature of Pharaoh. Pharoah is enslaved to sin. When he hears the word of God through Moses which irritates his evil will, Pharaoh's heart is hardened. Luther explains it this way:

In his consideration of Jacob and Esau in Romans 9, Erasmus denies that this passage speaks of predestination. Erasmus says God does not hate anybody from eternity. But God's wrath and fury against sin are revealed on Esau because He knows the sins he will commit. In this connection, when Romans 9 speaks of God as the potter making a vessel of honor and dishonor, Erasmus says that God does this because of their belief and unbelief. Erasmus is trying to deny the necessity of the fulfillment of God's decree in order to support the freedom of the will.

Once again, Luther objects. Luther defends the necessity of consequence to what God decrees. Luther says, "If God foreknows a thing, it necessarily takes place." Therefore, in regard to Jacob and Esau, they did not attain their positions by their own free-will. Romans 9 emphasizes that they were not yet born and that they had not yet done good or evil. Without any works of obedience or disobedience, the one was master and the other was the servant. Jacob was rewarded not on the basis of anything he had done. Jacob was loved and Esau was hated even before the world began. Jacob loved God because God loved him. Therefore the source of salvation is not the free-will of man, but God's eternal decree. Paul is not the great champion of the freedom of the will.

In defense of the literal meaning of Romans 9:21-23, Luther shows that these verses oppose free-will as well. Luther examines the passage in the context of what Paul is saying. The emphasis in the earlier verses is not man, but what God does. He is sovereign in salvation. Here also, the emphasis is the potter. God is sovereign, almighty, and free. Man is enslaved to sin and acts out of necessity according to all God decrees. Luther shows that this is the emphasis of Romans 9 with sound exegetical work.

After refuting the texts to which Erasmus refers, Luther continues to show that Scripture denies the freedom of the will and teaches the sovereignty of God in salvation. He begins with Romans 1:18 which says, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness." Luther says this means all men are ungodly and are unrighteous. Therefore, all deserve the wrath of God. The best a man can do is evil. Referring to Romans 3:9, Luther proves the same thing. Both Jews and Greeks are all under sin. They will and do nothing but evil. Man has no power to seek after good because there is none that doeth good (Ps. 14:3). Therefore, men are "ignorant of and despise God! Here is unbelief, disobedience, sacrilege, blasphemy towards God, cruelty and mercilessness towards one's neighbors and love of self in all things of God and man." Luther's conclusion to the matter is this: man is enslaved to sin.

Man cannot obtain salvation by his works. Romans 3:20 says that by the works of the law no man can be justified in God's sight. It is impossible for a man to merit salvation by his works. Salvation must be the sovereign work of God.

Luther thunders against free-will in connection with Romans 3:21-16 which proclaims salvation by grace alone through faith.58 Free-will is opposed to faith. These are two different ways of salvation. Luther shows that a man cannot be saved by his works, therefore it must be by faith in Jesus Christ. Justification is free, of grace, and without works because man possesses no worthiness for it.

Finally, we notice that Luther points out the comprehensive terms of the apostle Paul to show that there is no free-will in man. All are sinners. There is none that is righteous, and none that doeth good. Paul uses many others also. Therefore, justification and salvation are without works and without the law.

Over against the idea of free-will stands the clear teaching of Scripture. Luther clearly exegetes God's Word to show this. In summary, the truth of predestination denies the free-will of man. Because salvation is by grace and faith, salvation is not by works. Faith and grace are of no avail if salvation is by the works of man. Also, the only thing the law works is wrath. The law displays the unworthiness, sinfulness, and guilt of man. As children of Adam we can do no good. Luther argues along these lines to show that a free-will does not exist in man. Salvation is by grace alone.

The Main Issues and Implications of Each View

Luther is not interested in abstract theological concepts. He does not take up this debate with Erasmus on a purely intellectual level. The main issue is salvation: how does God save? Luther himself defines the issue on which the debate hinges:

So it is not irreligious, idle, or superfluous, but in the highest degree wholesome and necessary, for a Christian to know whether or not his will has anything to do in matters pertaining to salvation…. This is the hinge on which our discussion turns, the crucial issue between us.

Luther finds it necessary to investigate from Scripture what ability the will of man has and how this is related to God and His grace. If one does not know this, he does not know Christianity. Luther brings this against Erasmus because he shows no interest in the truth regarding how it is that some are saved.

Although the broad issue of the debate is how God saves, the specific issue is the sovereignty of God in salvation. The main issue for Luther is that man does not have a free-will by which he merits eternal life, but God sovereignly saves those whom He has chosen.

Luther is pursuing the question, "Is God, God?" This means, is God the omnipotent who reigns over all and who sovereignly saves, or does He depend on man? If God depends on man for anything, then He is not God. Therefore Luther asks the question of himself: Who will try to reform his life, believe, and love God? His answer, "Nobody." No man can do this of himself. He needs God. "The elect, who fear God, will be reformed by the Holy Spirit; the rest will perish unreformed." Luther defends this truth so vigorously because it is the heart of the gospel. God is the sovereign God of salvation. If salvation depends on the works of man, he cannot be saved.

Certain implications necessarily follow from the views of salvation defended by both men. First, we must consider the implications which show the falsehood of Erasmus' view of salvation.

When Erasmus speaks of merit, he is really speaking as a Pelagian. This was offensive to Erasmus because he specifically claimed that he was not a Pelagian. But Luther rightly points out that Erasmus says man merits salvation. According to the idea of merit, man performs an act separate from God, which act is the basis of salvation. He deserves a reward. This is opposed to grace. Therefore, if merit is at all involved, man saves himself. This makes Erasmus no different from the Pelagians except that the Pelagians are honest. Pelagians honestly confess that man merits eternal life. Erasmus tries to give the appearance that he is against the Pelagians although he really is a Pelagian. Packer and Johnston make this analysis:

According to Luther, Erasmus does not succeed in moving closer to the Augustinian position. Instead, he cheapens the purchase of God's grace. Luther says:

The Pelagians base salvation upon works; men work for their own righteousness. But Erasmus has cheapened the price which must be paid for salvation. Because only a small work of man is needed to merit salvation, God is not so great and mighty. Man only needs to choose God and choose the good. God's character is tarnished with the teaching of Erasmus. This semi-Pelagianism is worse than Pelagianism, for little is required to earn salvation. As Packer and Johnston say, "that is to belittle salvation and to insult God."

Another implication of the synergistic view of salvation held to by Erasmus is that God is not God. Because salvation depends upon the free-will of man according to Erasmus, man ascribes divinity to himself. God is not God because He depends upon man. Man himself determines whether or not he will be saved. Therefore the study of soteriology is not the study of what God does in salvation, but soteriology is a study of what man does with God to deserve eternal life.

This means God's grace is not irresistible, but man can reject the grace of God. Man then has more power than God. God watches passively to see what man will do.

Finally, a serious implication of the view of Erasmus is that he denies salvation is found in Jesus Christ alone. In his Diatribe, Erasmus rarely mentions Jesus Christ. This shows something is wrong. This does follow from what Erasmus says. The emphasis for Erasmus is what man must do to be saved and not on what God has done in Jesus Christ. Therefore Jesus Christ is not the only way of salvation and is not that important.

Over against the implications of Erasmus' view are the orthodox implications of Luther's view. God is sovereign in salvation. God elects His people, He sent Jesus Christ, and reveals Jesus Christ only to His people. It is God who turns the enslaved wills of His people so that they seek after Him. Salvation does not depend upon the work of man in any sense.

The basis of salvation is Jesus Christ alone. Because man is enslaved to sin, He must be turned from that sin. He must be saved from that sin through the satisfaction of the justice of God. A man needs the work of Jesus Christ on the cross to be saved. A man needs the new life of Jesus Christ in order to inherit eternal life. The merits of man do not save because he merits nothing with God. A man needs the merits of Jesus Christ for eternal life. A man needs faith by which he is united to Christ.

The source of this salvation is election. God saves only those whom He elects. Those who receive that new life of Christ are those whom God has chosen. God is sovereign in salvation.

Because God is sovereign in salvation, His grace cannot be resisted. Erasmus says that the reason some do not believe is because they reject the grace which God has given to them. Luther implies that God does not show grace to all men. Instead, He saves and shows favor only to those who are His children. In them, God of necessity, efficaciously accomplishes His purpose.

Because man cannot merit eternal life, saving faith is not a work of man by which he merits anything with God. Works do not justify a man. Salvation is the work of God alone in Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit. Faith is a gift of God whereby we are united to Jesus Christ and receive the new life found in Him. Even the knowledge and confidence as the activity of faith are the gifts of faith.

Finally, only with this view of salvation that God is sovereign can a man have comfort that he will be saved. Because God is sovereign in salvation and because His counsel is immutable, we cannot fall from the grace of God. He preserves those who are His children. Erasmus could not have this comfort because he held that man determines his own salvation.

The Importance of This Controversy Today

Although this controversy happened almost five hundred years ago, it is significant for the church today. The error of "semi-Pelagianism" is still alive in the church today. Much of the church world sides with Erasmus today, even among those who claim to be "Reformed." If a "Reformed" or Lutheran church denies what Luther says and sides with Erasmus, they despise the reformation of the church in the sixteenth century. They might as well go back to the Roman Catholic Church.

This controversy is important today because many deny that Jesus Christ is the only way of salvation. A man can worship heathen gods and be saved. This follows from making works the basis of salvation. Over against this error, Martin Luther proclaimed the sovereignty of God in salvation. He proclaimed Jesus Christ as the only way of salvation. We must do the same.

The error of Pelagianism attacks the church in many different forms. We have seen that in the history of the Protestant Reformed Churches. The sovereignty of God in salvation has been attacked by the errors of common grace and a conditional covenant. Over against these errors, some in the church world have remained steadfast by the grace of God. God does not love all. Nor does He show favor to all men in the preaching of gospel. Erasmus himself said that God showed grace to all men and God does not hate any man. The Arminians said the same thing at the time of the Synod of Dordt. Yet, men who defend common grace claim to be Reformed. They are not.

Also, in this synergistic view of salvation, we see the principles of the bilateral, conditional covenant view which is in many "Reformed" churches. If God and man work together in salvation, then the covenant must be a pact in which both God and man must hold up each one's end of the agreement. Over against this we must proclaim the sovereignty of God in salvation especially in regard to the covenant. The covenant is not conditional and bilateral. God works unconditionally and unilaterally in the covenant of grace.

Finally, we must apply the truth of the sovereignty of God defended by Luther to ourselves. We could say there is a Pelagian in all of us. We know God sovereignly saves, but we often show by our practice that we proudly want to sneak a few of our works in the back door. We must depend upon God for all things.

May this truth which Martin Luther defended, the truth of the sovereignty of God in salvation, be preserved in the church.


TOPICS: History; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: bondageofthewill; catholic; christalone; erasmus; faithalone; gracealone; luther; martinluther; protestant; reformation; savedbygracealone; scripturealone; solascriptura; thegoodnews
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To: HarleyD

But Peter is not making a comparison between the merits of certain books; his statement is that some people distort both. One can say that the comparison implied in "also the rest of" is not intentional. If I say "first-graders do not understand Shakespeare as they also don't understand chemistry" I assert no equivalence between Shakespeare and chemistry.


2,161 posted on 01/30/2006 4:36:00 PM PST by annalex
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To: kosta50

You did, but somehow it did not register the first time. I am dumber than I look.


2,162 posted on 01/30/2006 4:37:31 PM PST by annalex
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; annalex; jo kus; Cronos
However, that would bring me back to my recently posted argument (after your post) about God's role in creating man with the potential to sin. Is it only natural if man doesn't do what he could do?

Well, in order for humans to be in the image of God, they must have dominion through intellect (wisdom) to choose freely and judge. For humans to be moral agents, in the likeness of God, they must know what is morally good and what is immoral; so that they may be righteous, merciful and just in the exercise of their dominion, as their Father is the exercise of His.

God certainly did not intend man to be immoral and unrighteous. The whole concept of moral, repsonsible and righteous becomes meaningless unless man has free will to exercise the qualities God gave him, in the image and likeness of God.

But in order for man to be free he must be able to choose between what is right and what is not right. The only alternative is to create a man who is, like animals, driven by necessities, and has dominion over lower species by brute force alone. And that's not how God created man.

2,163 posted on 01/30/2006 4:57:09 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: annalex
A more accurate comparison is that people distort Paul's writings just like they distort the REST of the scriptures. It's not just a comparison. Peter specifically equates it to other scriptures. It's more like people distort the Book of James just as they distort the Book of Job.
2,164 posted on 01/30/2006 4:57:11 PM PST by HarleyD (Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way? - Pro 20:24)
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To: HarleyD
Peter specifically equates it to other scriptures

No he does not. The only specific thing he offers on Paul's letters is that they are difficult.

2,165 posted on 01/30/2006 5:12:31 PM PST by annalex
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To: HarleyD; annalex; jo kus; Kolokotronis; Cronos
Then couldn't they be Gnostic writings the Church has erroneously declared "inspired"?

One of the reasons it took the Church 300+ years to put together Christian canon is precisely the fear that the books which seemed inspired may have been written by heretics. I mentioned earlier that over 200 such texts existed, all masquerading as "inspired" books. Of tese, 27 ended up in the Christian canon.

The Church fathers painstakingly researched, read and compared texts, debated their implications and message, and compared them to the teachings of Christ from texts known to be authored by the Apostles.

Anything that was written by an Apostle was considered inspired. However, the autorship of some of these was in dispute and still is. Many of the late Pauline, Petrine and other epistles were accepted on content and seamlessness of their message withr espect to the Church Tradition tat was kept alive in writing and by word of mouth from the beginning.

Thus, in your rant about traditions of men, you miss to note 2 Thess 2:15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

and 2 Thess 3:6 "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."

Apples and oranges...

The Church has made mistakes in the past

The Churhc may has engaged in some erroneous practices and beliefs and has steadfastly corrected them. The original Church, one, holy, catholic and apostolic, taught one and the same faith for 1,000 years and was defined by oral Tradition, the Scriptures and the Ecumenical Cuncils, all in perfect harmony. The Church of the seven councils never made an error in teaching or in weeding out what was not faith once delivered, unchanged. I can't vouch for the Latin side, but the Orthodox Church, which is the same Church of the seven councils, teaches exactly the same thing the Church taught from the beginning. The Latin side teaches some things we do not teach, but this seems to be more an issue of terminology and phronema (mindset) rather than error. I can guarantee you that if the Church, at a next ecumenical council, finds error in teaching in its ranks, the Church will reject that error, and call those who erroneously taught that which the Church did not believe from the beginning, to repent or be excommunicated.

2,166 posted on 01/30/2006 5:20:58 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: annalex; Kolokotronis

No you are not! Kolo has a special gift for presenting things clearly and easy to comprehend, which is a big help for the Orthodox on this forum [but don't tell the Greek; his head might swell a wee bit :-) ]


2,167 posted on 01/30/2006 5:23:55 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: annalex; kosta50

"So "sending" is not the same as "procession as regards existence"? My Catholic lung feels fine. Does this satisfy my Orthodox lung?"

Always has! :) That's what the Greek says, in essence.


2,168 posted on 01/30/2006 5:26:54 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: HarleyD; annalex; jo kus; Kolokotronis; Cronos
errata...

The Churhc may has is a spelling not grammatical error; apologies.

The original Church, one, holy, catholic and apostolic, taught one and the same faith for 1,000 years and was defined by oral Tradition, the Scriptures and the Ecumenical Cuncils, all in perfect harmony

This was an awkward statement by me and does not reflect what I had in mind. What I wanted to say was: The Church taught one and the same theology for 1,000 years...then separated over the issue of the procession of the Holy Spirit, political and social disagreemnts, etc. The Church, both Latin and Orthodox teaches the same faith, now 2,000 years after Christ, with some variations in terminology, mindset, ecclesiology, etc. and which need to be ironed out. Until such issues are ironed out, and the faith refomulated in the mutually agreeable manner, by an ecumenical council, the Orthodox Curch cannot share the Eucharist with the Latins, because the Eucharist is not the means of achieveing union but an expression of such union.

2,169 posted on 01/30/2006 5:37:03 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper
Thank you both for your answers on OT history. This is very interesting

You are welcome. You may look at the New Testament canon in 2081 for reference.

2,170 posted on 01/30/2006 5:50:17 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper

Sorry that would be post 2,111


2,171 posted on 01/30/2006 5:52:29 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: HarleyD
The very fact that it is NOW included in the Canon should attest to it's infalliblity. Wouldn't that be correct?

I suppose if all Christians of 100 AD could foretell the future, that would be relevant. But how does the future Church's determination have any bearing on what people from 100 AD thought? It is clear that there was disagreement on whether it was Scripture, or even written by Peter!

In fact there were very few books that were called into question. Peter considered Paul's writings inspired.

You are not correct. Not only were some books called into question, other communities considered OTHER books as inspired. For example, the First Letter of Clement to the Corinthians was considered SCRIPTURE, read during the Sunday Masses, for over 150 years, according to writers of Liturgical history. That's well into 250 AD! Now, the Letter is NOT found to be inspired by the Church. Hmmm. What seems obvious is that the universal Church decides on such matters, not local communities - much less individuals!

Undoubtedly the early church felt the same about Peter's writings.

Wrong again, Harley. Two Peter was a controversial epistle. It was not accepted by the majority of Christian Fathers until much later - thus, it is called a New Testament Deuterocanonical (for the same reason that the OT Deuts were). I have a website link that I can send you to (if interested) that lays out which Fathers thought were Scripture regarding the NT.

Nor did the church fathers sit around scratching their heads trying to decide what books to quote from. There is no better evidence than Peter's own words which the Church has deemed "inspired".

You again provide a false dilemna. Who said that the Church Fathers HAD to quote ONLY from Scripture? The NT ITSELF quotes from Apocrypha AND from pagan philosophers! The Church Fathers would quote from whatever source they felt it was appropriate to explain the APOSTOLIC TRADITION. That is what was passed down and protected from DAY ONE. From the beginning, the Church had a particular way of looking at its held doctrine. The only reason that particular writings were "dubbed" as Scripture is BECAUSE they happen to agree with already held doctrines from Tradition.

Some would like us to believe that the Church's council got together in the 4th century and magically strung all these books together, picking and choosing. You say that Peter had the keys to the kingdom and it was handed down in succession providing a clear documented trail back to Peter. And then you tell us nobody knew what books were inspired until the 4th century. Doesn't this seem a bit odd?

Yes, if someone actually made that claim! The Catholic Church doesn't claim that it took 400 years to determine that every single book in the NT was inspired, as if NO ONE knew they were from God until the late 300's. I don't know anyone who has made that claim here. Perhaps you misunderstood. At any rate, men, led by the Spirit, can see a parallel between what they were taught and what was written by Paul to the Galatians. But was it "widely-held"? Who knows? But the very fact that people begin to compile their own ideas of what Scripture was (such as Athanasius' Easter Sermon, or Marcion) forced the Church to settle any disputes. That is what the Church heirarchy is for - to be a visible authority to settle disagreements. If the Church was not a God-protected authority recognized by the members of the Body, then what good would their declaration be? However, from the beginning, the Body has recognized that the Head speaks through the Apostles' Successors. Re-consider reading the Fathers if you don't believe me.

In truth all but a few of the writings were already validated and verified all the way back to Peter. (To deny this is to deny the inspiration of Peter.)

Validated by who? Not by itself!!! The Church did. If a writing was not in-line with the Apostolic Teachings, they would have been tossed out. There can be no doubt on this. The Bible didn't determine the Church's doctrine. It merely helped to define it. Clearly, Apostolic authorship was instrumental in determining if something was Scripture. Unfortunately, it was not so clear if something WAS written by Paul or not on the surface. Paul himself tells communities to beware of forgeries. Two Peter was an example of a book probably not written by Peter - and even the early Church had doubts about this. And finally, what about all of those other writings that DIDN'T make the Canon that were considered Scripture by some? You fail to address them.

In a letter from Pope Innocent I to a Bishop of Toulouse, 405 AD, after writing that compilation of the Canon, continues:

"Others, however, which were written under the name of Matthias or of James the Less, or under the name of Peter and of John, by a certain Leucius, or under the name of Andrew, by philosophers Nexocharis and Leonidas, or under the name of Thomas and such others as may be, are not only to be repudiated, but, as you know, are also to be condemned"

In the end, we can't be sure on every book of Scripture unless we rely on the witness of the early Church. Without this, how would we even know that the Gospel of Mark was inspired, while the Gospel of Thomas was not?

Regards

2,172 posted on 01/30/2006 6:20:39 PM PST by jo kus
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To: kosta50
Me: "Is there a need for God to forgive sin?"

God neither has needs, nor is He driven by necessities. If we follow Christ, we will feel a need to confess our sins, not as a legalistic obligation, but as a realization that we have been ungrateful to Him.

I'm sorry, I meant is there a need by man to be forgiven of sin by God for salvation? I thought I remembered that actually achieving theosis is rare for someone, at least in this lifetime, but that it was still possible to be saved. I was trying to ask how integral is God's forgiveness of sins to this? I guess I mean is God's forgiving of our sins one piece of a larger salvation puzzle, or is it absolutely key?

Theosis is becoming God-like, Christ-like. It is a process, a spiritual growth to holiness through faith in God, in due time.

You may have heard people of my faith say things like they want to adopt "the mind of Christ" or that we should "conform ourselves to the image of Christ". Are these comparable? Also, theosis sounds a lot to me like what I would call sanctification. Is this right, or are there important differences?

2,173 posted on 01/30/2006 7:50:22 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50; annalex; HarleyD
The concept of plans or planning can have meaning only in a finite context where time has meaning. But for God, what meaning can time have save as an observable state?

I fully agree with you that language can get in the way here. Did God create time itself, at least in part, for us to experience? Our knowledge of Him is in the context of time, so regardless of whether He does or does not experience time, we are meant to experience it and relate to Him through it. I think God wants us to understand Him to the extent of the abilities He gave us (including in time), even though we are not capable of understanding the full picture. Therefore, I believe this is a legitimate topic.

For me, this debate has been on whether or not God "changes His mind" in the way we experience time. Does God "react" to external stimuli (human actions) and do something different? While reiterating that God is not the author of evil, I would say that everything that has been, and is yet to be was pre-ordained by God in the beginning. The idea that God alters or changes His "plan" based on what humans do implies to me an admission from God that He was wrong about something. Tongue-in-cheek, I ask is God only human? :)

FK, notice how +Palamas soundly denies that we can become united with the "essence" of God.

That is the distinction I was "hoping" for, thanks for the clarification. :) I suppose this is another, accidental, example of language getting in the way ("as gods").

2,174 posted on 01/30/2006 9:41:54 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: kosta50
[Re: your analogy on God's plan:] God stands with his feet apart and looks down. He sees both feet at the same time and that distance is eternity. We are little ants on the ground between his feet. God has cleared a small portion of the ground to show the path between His feet, but some ants wander off because they are curious or because they see something to the side and wish to investigate. Some get too from from the trail and get lost. Those who stick to the trail reach the other foot eventually, even if their path is not exactly straight.

This is interesting. To a person hearing this for the first time, it seems that God is content that some ants wander off. He might wish for all the ants to cross, but it doesn't appear that He is willing to do anything about it. I didn't think you thought that God stays out of our lives. I know you know all the verses about Christ leading His sheep. Does God offer a path and then stay out of it? God Himself gave the ants the ability to be curious, so when they exercise it, is that too bad for them?

Me: "was it God's original plan that all people would be born immortal on earth, but man foiled this plan?"

Maybe you should ask yourself if God made Adam and Eve in Paradise so they can become corrupt and die? Did God destroy His own crown-jewels intentionally? ... I think it makes more sense that we are the culprits of the destruction of our own blessings rather than God, Who, after, all gave them to us.

God created Adam and Eve fully knowing they would become corrupt and die, He gave them that ability (can become), so the answer to your first question is 'Yes'. (Is that bad? :)

I don't think God destroyed anything in this sense, as He is not the author of evil. God could have created us as perfection, but He didn't. He included the potential to sin. This was done for His perfect purpose, but it is nonetheless true. I would agree that we are to blame for our own sins.

I believe God's plan incorporates His perfect knowledge of our sins, AND His unwillingness, at times, to interfere with their commission. Of course, other times God prevents us from sinning through the Spirit.

2,175 posted on 01/30/2006 11:34:28 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: kosta50; HarleyD; All
[Re: God's plan] Now, I have seen many models of this. [Here is a model I wouldn't bet my life on, but nevertheless] it works for me: ...

It's funny you should say that because I have something similar, but on a completely different subject, the trinity. I have always "liked" the comparison to how we experience the sun. We all experience the sun's light, the sun's heat, and the sun's radiation. All three "are" the sun, but we experience them in different ways, and they have different purposes (functions). It seems like a neat little way to explain it, but I have read that the analogy is flawed. However, I've never found an explanation. Therefore, I've never used it in witnessing. Has anyone heard of this before?

2,176 posted on 01/31/2006 12:06:41 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: kosta50; annalex; jo kus; Kolokotronis; Cronos
Anything that was written by an Apostle was considered inspired. However, the autorship of some of these was in dispute and still is.

Isn't it a tad bit odd to be formulating complete doctrines and policies for the Church on disputed text? What happens if someone "declares" 2/3 of the New Testament suspect. Are you going to throw out praying to the saints if that happens to be in the text? Are you guys going to shrug your shoulders and say, "Oops, guess we mess that one up."?

Honestly, this isn't some type of rant. When it comes down to it all, you really don't believe the Bible to be inspired. You have been brought up under a system that you are to listen to what the Church tells you and don't ask questions. You run back to 2 Thess and hide behind the Church fathers even through the early church fathers ran back to the scriptures. It is documented time and again in scripture about reading the text and you guy tell me you trace your lintage to Peter where the Church has forever been making all sorts of decisions; and then you tell me nobody knew what they were even preaching from. How disorganized.

The church fathers were wrong in some cases. They admitted they were wrong in some cases. But they always felt the scriptures were right. Something I hearing that you people really don't believe.

2,177 posted on 01/31/2006 2:29:12 AM PST by HarleyD (Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way? - Pro 20:24)
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To: Kolokotronis; HarleyD
Me: We appear to differ on who deserves the credit for the unfolding of world history exactly in line with ancient prophecy.

+Gregory Palamas addresses this very issue again in The Triads:

"Thus the deifying gift of the Spirit is a mysterious light, and transforms into light those who receive its richness; He does not only fill them with eternal light, but grants them a knowledge and a life appropriate to God. Thus, as St. Maximus teaches, St. Paul lived no longer a created life, but 'the eternal life of Him Who indwelt him.' Similarly, the prophets contemplated the future as if it were the present."

So we do disagree. To me, this quote describes how a prophet might come to "see". You are only giving credit to God for this part. I don't see you giving credit to God for causing those future events that the prophets saw. You can say that God saw the fulfillment of the prophecy and the making of the prophecy simultaneously. For the sake of discussion, I'll give you that.

The problem is: How did the fulfillment happen in the first place? Did God just "look up the answers" to know what prophecies to cause through the Spirit? God looked to us first for our actions, and then (simultaneously) instilled those results into the prophets hundreds of years earlier?

I would say that God had His mighty hand all over each and every fulfillment of prophecy. God made no adjustments to what the prophets said based on what He knew would happen later on. God made it all happen. He gets double credit.

2,178 posted on 01/31/2006 2:30:18 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: annalex; kosta50; Kolokotronis
A more Catholic-sounding term is sanctification, sainthood, or holiness, a state of sinless union with God. It is one of the sad things about Protestantism that it cheapened the notion by the concept of salvation by faith alone, which had the practical effect of discouraging the striving for holiness.

I assume you're kidding, but if not, please see posts 1-2100+ for a description of how Protestants view salvation and sanctification. :) Of course, I am more than willing to return the hundreds of kindnesses done to me in answering any questions to the best of my ability.

2,179 posted on 01/31/2006 3:04:32 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis
I guess I mean is God's forgiving of our sins one piece of a larger salvation puzzle, or is it absolutely key?

Sin is spiritual dirt we continue to cover ourselves with no matter how much we love God. We do it daily, hourly, every waking moment. Yes, there is a need for us to become pristine in order to be in communion with Him, so the answer is yes, our sins must be forgiven; we must be cleansed of all that separates us from Him. Some of that we can do ourselves, but ultimately it is God's mercy that accomplishes that.

You may have heard people of my faith say things like they want to adopt "the mind of Christ" or that we should "conform ourselves to the image of Christ"

That's part of it FK. Theosis is a way of "life in God." It is a process, a struggle in fact (Slavonic word for it is podvig), because our sin-prone nature makes it a struggle. It involves placing God first, everywhere and all the time and denying yourself. The idea is to become pure and clean so that, to paraphrase the Scripture, His light can shine through us for others to see and know Him.

2,180 posted on 01/31/2006 3:23:41 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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