Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will

Protestant Reformed Theological Journal ^ | April 1999 | Garrett J. Eriks

[annalex]

Preaching Gospel to the animals is something we should do if we are to imitate Christ in all we do. They are God's creation and just like the planets and the stars are sustained by Christ's love. Christ often compared us Christians to sheep, and taught us to learn from birds. It is solely through our love that animals get to heaven. Now, I am not sure of St. Francis literally quoted the Gospel to birds and dogs, and if he did, that would be eccentric. But most likely by Gospel he meant the good news of Christ's love, which can, and must, be transmitted to the animals in a way in which they can understand.

did not preach

If there is a single man post-patristic period that truly reformed the Church, that would be St. Francis. So, silent or vocal, he surely knew something the blabbermouths of Spurgeon's mold don't.

I find it indescribably sad that you believe [that Christian mysticism is just as dangerous as Christian Bible reading]

Well, look where Bible reading got you. Christ left you the Church. You stormed out. He left you the Eucharist. You refuse it. His Church left you the Gospels. Do you read them? You made a statement in 1,032, that works are not a requirement of salvation. I reminded you of the gospel that shows you wrong. You pretended you did not recognize it and demanded a quote (1,045). I obliged in 1,058. Do you recognize it now? Have you read it before? Do you suppose Luther read it?

[zeeba neighba]

Pardon me if I misunderstand, but I get the clear impression from these guys, who are all too happy to diss the Calvinists, but do you get the idea from listening to them that only Catholics are among the elect? Of course, I'm just a dumb little old read the bible guy, maybe I'm imagining it.

[annalex]

Jesus, and Jesus alone, is responsible for my salvation

Yes. Do you obey Him? He gave you His Church. Where are you?

[zeeba neighba]

Preaching Gospel to the animals is something we should do if we are to imitate Christ in all we do.

This is akin to the concepts of the Hindus, but if it makes you happy, you should do it.

[zeeba neighba]

I am safe in His loving arms, and you?

[zeeba neighba]

I have some Texas longhorns that have never read the bible. Can you come by when you have time?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The fact that a saved person sins should be proof enough that we still have free will.

None is perfect save Christ. But the Holy Spirit is working sanctification in all God's elect. I thought every Christian believed that.

Generally, are you not a better Christian today than you were yesterday? Last year? Ten years ago?

If the answer is "yes," it is because Scripture is true and the Holy Spirit is guiding your footsteps.

Look to the many "saved" people who fall away.

No person whom God knows will sit beside Him in heaven is going to not sit beside Him in heaven. If a person is truly saved, they are saved. Christ said He will lose none whom the Father has given Him. Christ's promise should give us 100% assurance all God's elect will be brought to redemption.

Otherwise, life is just a game of chance with salvation up for grabs and God's eternal decrees are but long-winded suggestions.

Look to the many "saved" people who do NOT love. They are all around us.

None is perfect save Christ. We have days, weeks, years to become the men and women God intends us to be. It's a long process with twists and turns and stumbles. But it is a road that only leads forward with the path lit by the Holy Spirit, the road markers written by God, and our hands held firmly by Christ Himself.

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14

[zeeba neighba]

If those steaks in the freezer are among the elect, I have a big problem

[annalex]

quick question on the difference between mortal and minor sin

There is mortal sin and venial sin. A mortal sin is anything that separates us from Christ, when it is done with full cooperation of informed will. A venial sin is anythiong that separates us from Christ done out of ignorance or inadvertence. Either sin can be looked on in terms of its gravity. We can speak of a grave or minor mortal sin, and of grave or minor venial sin. Either venial or mortal sin can be minor and not relate to the Ten Commandments directly. I just discussed, for example, the love of animals. Cruelty to an animal is a sin because it offends God's creation. But it is not listed anywhere directly. It is minor, relatively to cruelty to fellow man, anyway.

[annalex]

do you get the idea from listening to them that only Catholics are among the elect?

That would be the wrong idea, and you would not get it from reading this thread (perhaps together with your longhorns). For one thing, it illustrates how much mutual respect and understanding exists between the Catholic and the Orthodox, and both these Churches comprise the true visible Church of Christ. But salvation is limited to the Church as the mystical body of Christ, as I took some pains explaining to you the other day, and we don't really know her perimeter as well as we know the perimeter of the visible Church. We believe that many, even the unbaptized, will be judged for their righteousness and mystically converted by Christ on their deathbed. The advantage that the Catholic and the Orthodox have is that they have access to the full sacraments and wisdom of Christ in their daily lives. If they abide in His Church they have assurance, not merely a chance, of salvation.

[zeeba neighba]

and both these Churches comprise the true visible Church of Christ.

Are you saying, that they alone comprise the true visible Church?

[annalex]

Yes, that is what I mean. Other religious communities do much good, but they do not belong to the Church that Christ left to the apostles.

The marks of the true Church are: One, Holy, catholic, and Apostolic.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Preaching Gospel to the animals is something we should do if we are to imitate Christ in all we do.

Annalex, you've posted many interesting and heart-felt thoughts. I even like your kind words about Rushdooney on your homepage.

This insistence on preaching to animals, however, is very disappointing. I have many Roman Catholic friends and relatives who would be stunned to hear a fellow Christian make such absurd claims. Zeeba is correct; this attitude can be traced to Hindu origins and beyond, ultimately to the earth cult of Cybele. A shameful foundation for Christian beliefs. PETA, however, will be thrilled.

The preaching of the Gospel is to facilitate God's decree of salvation. Do animals need salvation?

Do insects and lobsters need the Gospel preached to them?

They (animals) are God's creation and just like the planets and the stars are sustained by Christ's love.

Are we now supposed to preach the Gospel to the stars and planets? This is gnostic, Annalex. Repent of it.

...the good news of Christ's love, which can, and must, be transmitted to the animals in a way in which they can understand.

My schnauzer knows nothing but Meatybone. We both like it that way. I think God favors that approach, too.

My advice is if you have enough spare time to preach the Gospel to assorted frogs and mules and chickens, you should stop immediately and go out into the world and find a lost wretch who has never heard the Gospel and tell him the Good News of Christ's resurrection.

Life is short. Prioritize, man.

...blabbermouths of Spurgeon's mold don't.

That reminds me...how about molds? They're alive. Should we preach the Gospel to mold?

[Kolokotronis]

Thank-you for the ping.

Alex is a much more gentle soul than I am when dealing with the heterodox. Lest there be any doubt about the matter, to my eyes you "preach a new gospel" and I therefore share the opinion of my forefathers going back at least 1800, maybe 2000 years that you Calvinists, like all teachers of a "new gospel", are heretics. Now of course my friend Harley has taught me that in his eyes I am an adherent of the heresy of Semi-Pelagianism, on account of which, both he and I can assure you, I took no offense. I recently indicated to Forest Keeper that he might be called a heretic, but that I doubted that he would care very much if the Orthodox or the Catholics called him that. I was right.

You seem to think that because you are a Christian that that somehow insulates you from heresy or being called a heretic. Where did you get such an idea? The last thing I would have expected from a Calvinist is religious relativism. Dear lady, the overwhelming majority of heretics are or were Christians. Surely one such as yourself knows that. Pagans are not heretics. Jews are not heretics. Mohammadens may be, but that's another story.

Its really quite simple. 600 years ago some people got mad at Rome, broke with it and started their own ecclesial groups. They did away with most of the theology and praxis of the The Church, both Latin and Orthodox, claiming they found a mandate to do so in the Scriptures by using a power of scriptural interpretation which had apparently laid dormant for the first 1500 years of the life of The Church. That "every man a pope" idea has lead to the present what, 3000 or so Protestant sects. From the point of view of The Church, the Protestants have denied what The Church always and everywhere believed and preach, as I said, a "new gospel". That makes you heretics in the eyes of The Church and of its children.

I simply can't understand why you think that a Catholic or an Orthodox, or even a Lutheran for that matter, calling you a heretic is some sort of intended insult. Coming from us its simply a matter of stating a fact. Were you a faithful Catholic and I were to call you a heretic, that might well be and be taken as an insult. The opposite of course is also true.

Anyway, dear lady, I'll let you in on a secret. I don't think you were insulted at all. I think you just wanted to take a shot at D and that was the best you could come up with.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

If those steaks in the freezer are among the elect, I have a big problem

ROTFLMBO!!!

That's what confession is for. 8~)

[zeeba neighba]

Yes, that is what I mean.

Then you are doing the same thing that you accuse the Calvinists of doing, but unlike them, you have no scripture to back it up. You have a club, the club of Rome.

On the longhorn issue, if you ever did read the bible, you would know that only a spiritual creature can benefit from hearing the Word of the Lord. Your human kindness is commendable, but it is not the good news that makes up the Gospel. But why just preach to the animals then, if you are going to preach to the unspiritual? Preach to trees and rocks, and the hills, and all the green grass. It makes about as much sense.

[Dionysiusdecordealcis]

Life is tough, dontcha know it!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

LOL. The "shot" was not mine, but yours. I haven't called anyone a "heretic."

You are entitled to call whomever whatever names you wish. Most likely, you'll still be on this forum after calling all Calvinists "heretics" not once, not twice, but now at least three times.

Others are not allowed such latitude with the language.

Such is life. Nobody said it was fair.

But at least you are on record now as denouncing Bible-believing, Christ-worshipping, God-fearing, Trinitarian Christians as "heretics."

Trent says no less.

Clarity counts.

[Forest Keeper]

Thank you very much, Annalex, for your link to "Defenders of the Catholic Faith". I will look into it.

[zeeba neighba]

And that's why the guy invented ta da.....

The patented Jaccard meat tenderizer, spring loaded and has 48 stainless steel blades strategically placed to make your meat wonderfully tender without loss of juices.