No Understanding of Bible Prophecy

World Watch Daily ^ | 12/29/2005 | Bill Koenig

[Sam Gamgee]

I find replacement theology disturbing as it seems to portend a justification for abandoning our support for Israel. Some of it goes to nutty extremes such as the cultish British Israelis who believe, conveniently, that the Anglo Saxons are now the chosen people. Yeah, whatever. Does anyone have thoughts on the Lost Tribes theory that the Celts are the 10 lost tribes. Is this advanced by archaeologists and anthropologists? Or just wishful thinkers?

[Sam Gamgee]

I got lost on your Narnia mention. How does Narnia advocate the theft of the Jew's chosen people status?

[Sam Gamgee]

I believe that Israel has its own destiny aside from that of Christians.

[Sam Gamgee]

Israel was still commanded to keep the covenant laws of God. How is it that Judah was conquered and dispersed but still follows the commands given in the Old Testament, while there are no people of Israel that follow similar laws? My guess is that Israelis didn’t ghettoize themselves as the people of Judah did, and became racially mixed with the Assyrians, then the Persians and Greeks.

[Thinkin' Gal]

There is a very broad distinction in the Bible between these two nations. In fact the very first place you will find the word Jew mentioned in scripture is 2 Kings 16:5-6 and Israel is at war against the Jews. This is one reason why so many folks cannot understand simple prophecy. They are trying to place the wrong events on the wrong people at the wrong time.

It's the dirty little secret the modern prophecy expert$ are conveniently ignorant of and/or hide intentionally from their flock$. The buying and selling of interpretation is big business.

Joseph is yet alive.

[Diego1618]

Are you saying that literal Isreal has a place in the end time prophecy?

Jeremiah 30:3, [The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity...]The book of Ezra records the return of Judah from captivity. You do not find any mention of the 10 tribes of Israel in this book.

The book of Nehemiah also records the return of Judah and does not mention any of the ten tribes of Israel that had been carried in to captivity earlier.

Jeremiah 31:35, [This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and the stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar. The Lord Almighty is his name: Only if these decrees vanish from my sight, declares the Lord, will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me.]

Jeremiah 33:17, [For this is what the Lord says: David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel.] and in verse 20, [This is what the Lord says: If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night no longer come at their appointed time, then my covenant with David my servant-and my covenant with the Levites who are priests ministering before me-can be broken and David will no longer have a descendant to reign on his throne.]

This prophecy has never been fulfilled by the nation of Judah..... and the sun, the moon and the stars still shine. History tells of the return of Judah, as does the Bible. Israel must still be somewhere, not knowing who they are, but having still a descendant of David on their throne or the word of God is useless!

[Diego1618]

Joseph is yet alive.

I've never heard that before....very profound.

[Thinkin' Gal]

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles [Hebrew = melo hagoyim] be come in.

When Israel could not see:

Genesis 48:8-11

8 And Israel beheld Joseph's sons, and said, Who are these?
9 And Joseph said unto his father, They are my sons, whom God hath given me in this place. And he said, Bring them, I pray thee, unto me, and I will bless them.
10 Now the eyes of Israel were dim for age, so that he could not see. And he brought them near unto him; and he kissed them, and embraced them.
11 And Israel said unto Joseph, I had not thought to see thy face: and, lo, God hath shewed me also thy seed.

>>>18-20

18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations [melo hagoyim].
20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

Blindness in part is happened to Israel, until Ephraim comes on the scene. Ezekiel 37.

Ephraim means "double fruitfulness";"double ash-heap";

O beautiful for spacious skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the fruited plain!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

America the Beautiful - Oh Mother Dear Jerusalem

Double ash heap

[kerryusama04]

I always thought there were 12 tribes.

The dude on the throne of David would be Jesus.

[Lee N. Field]

I believe that Israel has its own destiny aside from that of Christians.

Would that be a destiny where they are saved apart from Christ?

If Israel is not saved, it's not a destiny worth having.

If Israel is saved in Christ, they are Christians.

If you hold that Israel is saved apart from Christ, what does that do for the doctrines of man's fallen state and Christ's atonement?

[Thinkin' Gal]

Shema Yisrael, Adonai Elohenu, Adonai Echad.


Amos 8:11-12 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: 12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.


Psalm 111:9-10

He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend [3372] is his name.
10 The fear [3374] of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do [his commandments]: his praise endureth for ever.

[Sam Gamgee]

I guess that sentence could be interpreted in a way I didn't mean. No, of course, all pagans, atheists and anyone that denies the saviour as Christ is damned.

I guess I meant God still has a plan for the people of Judah. That many will come to accept Christ as the Messiah. I just don't believe he has shaken them from his feet and has given their status as his chosen people to another people.

[Diego1618]

Blindness in part is happened to Israel, until Ephraim comes on the scene. Ezekiel 37.

verse 15-17, [The word of the Lord came to me: Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, "Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him." Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, "Ephraims stick, belonging to Joseph and all the house of Israel associated with him." Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand.]

Verse 21, [and say to them, "This is what the sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel.]

Verse 27, [My dwelling place will be with them. I will be their God, and they will be my people.]

[Sam Gamgee]

So where is and whom is Ephraim now?

[Cronos]

Interesting -- the Catholic Church comprises 45% of the total number of Church-goers, the next being the SBC with 11%. That makes the USA a Catholic nation, I'd say :)

[Cronos]

The Ten Tribes were carried away captive by the Assyrians earlier (722 BC). The present location of the Ten tribes is unknown to us;

Well, not really -- there weren't even 10 lost tribes: remember that Simenon, Judah and Benjamin stayed together along with a large number of Levits. Reuben and Gad on the eastern side of the Jordan had merged with Ammon and Moab. The northern tribes had slowly withered away under the more powerful state of Aram (Syria). The ones that were deported by the Assyrians were most likely deported to the other end of their Empire (standard Assyrian practise) and that would mean that they were moved to Mesopotamia or Turkey. They wouldn't have been moved in a group (As that group could then unite and turn on the Assyrians -- the Assyrians weren't dumb), so they were most likely dispersed. And since they didn't have the strong underpinings of faith the Judeans had, they quietly merged with the Babylonians, Medes, Persians, Assyrians, Anatolians etc. A few did come to Judea after the Persian kings allowed the Judeans to return, but they merged with the Judeans.

[Diego1618]

I always thought there were 12 tribes.

There were 12 tribes until Joseph's two boys received the birthright blessings from Israel, adopting them as his own. [Genesis 48:5-6. Ephraim and Mannasseh now had equal status as "Sons of Israel".Now we have thirteen. Later the tribe of Levi became a priestly tribe and divided itself among the other tribes. This was the tribe of Moses and Aaron. Now we are back to twelve.

1 Kings 11:11-13 [So the lord said to Solomon, "Since this is your attitude and you have not kept my covenant and my decrees, which I commanded you, I will most certainly tear the kingdom away from you and give it to one of your subordinates. Nevertheless, for the sake of David your Father, I will not do it during your lifetime. I will tear it out of the hand of your son. Yet I will not tear the whole kingdom from him, but will him one tribe for the sake of David my servant and for the sake of Jerusalem, which I have chosen.]

Now we have two kingdoms....one of the North and one of the South. The Northern kingdom(ten tribes) kept the name of Israel and the Southern kingdom(two tribes), composed of Judah and Benjamin was called Judah which was later shortened to Jews. The Northern kingdom was carried off into captivity by the Assyrians in about 721 B.C. and became known as the "Lost Tribes" because they never came back. Judah was later taken captive by the Babylonians but they returned to Jerusalem as chronicled by Ezra and Nehemiah.

The dude on the throne of David would be Jesus.

Jeremiah 52:10-11, [There at Riblah the king of Babylon slaughtered the sons of Zedekiah before his eyes ; He also killed all the officials of Judah. Then he put out Zedekiah's eyes, bound him with bronze shackles and took him to Babylon where he put him in prison to the day of his death.]

Notice the lack of descendants from the line of David all of a sudden! Who was now on the throne?....Jesus would not be born for another 600 years. Remember God's promise from Jeremiah 33. There will always be a descendant of David to sit on the throne continually. Where was that throne and who was now sitting on it?

[Thinkin' Gal]

Notice the lack of descendants from the line of David all of a sudden! Who was now on the throne?....Jesus would not be born for another 600 years. Remember God's promise from Jeremiah 33. There will always be a descendant of David to sit on the throne continually. Where was that throne and who was now sitting on it?

1 Kings 9:4-7

4 And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments:
5 Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.
6 But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them:
7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:

***

Ezekiel 37:21-24

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

[presently no screen name]

Those that submitted their life to Jesus (not CINO's) will be taken out - He took the Jews from Egypt, He took Noah out before His wrath.

Luke 21v28

[presently no screen name]

I heard that, also, but replacement theology is not biblical. The Jewish people are still His 'chosen'.