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To: BlackElk
The PNCC is no longer "schismatic". The USC"C"B Guidelines for the Reception of Communion say:
Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches.

They are not barred from Communion like all schismatics are, only asked to "respect the discipline of their own Church".

The rise of PNCC is the direct result of American Bishops' folly over material property. St. Stanislaus parish was founded over 120 years ago as independent property and it was to remain as such in perpetuity. The parish never received a penny of support from the diocese. If Burke asked me to give him my truck or house or get excommunicated, guess which one would I choose?

103 posted on 12/21/2005 3:37:52 AM PST by I Believe It's Not Butter
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To: I Believe It's Not Butter; BlackElk
According to the excellent book by Whelan (not the late Hartford Archbsp.), "Separated Brethren", the main problem that precipitated the PNCC was the fact that the vast majority of priests were Irish. As a result American Catholicism developed in some quarters a more austere feel (due to suppression of Catholicism by the Perfide Albion). I am part Pole myself, and we are nothing if not stubborn. The town I was raised in, Wallingford, CT has one of those churches, and it was only then that a Polish ethnic parish was set up.

Elk's point is that as long as the bishop is not asking you to sin, he has authority over this aspect of your life, subject to the teachings and Tradition of the Church.

Does the Archbishop have complete authority (including demanding outright ownership) of the churches in his Archdiocese? Heck yeah! Should he exercise it as he has? At this point, irrelevant. There are scores of churches in Chicago and Detroit and Los Angeles where the parishoners built and sweated over the churches for over 100 years, only to have them bulldozed or wreckovated. Archbishop Burke did not have that in mind. The people of that church have a lot less to complain about than those who have had their buildings bulldozed or turned into nightclubs or post offices.

Yes, a future bishop might do just that, and we have to wait it out just like we wait out a bad president, governor, or judge. (In a Dem. Republic, we don't set up a shadow government. At some point, when enough people conclude that the society has turned into complete tyranny, moral anarchy or some strange combination, the shooting might start. Few people truly act as if we are there yet.)

I would give the bishop my car rather than be excommunicated (of course, I drive a $500 car). But the bishop hasn't asked for my car, he has asked for the church building for which he has to answer to God for everything that happens inside.
104 posted on 12/21/2005 5:08:35 AM PST by sittnick (There is no salvation in politics.)
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To: I Believe It's Not Butter; MarMema; ninenot; sittnick
It certainly is not butter. Neither is the PN"C"C. Accept no substitutes.

IBINB: When these rebellious trustees are prepared to obey their duly constituted archbishop, be sure to get back to me.

Individual bishops have individual authority when they are diocesan ordinaries. The Roman Catholic Church, however, is also not a democracy. Thank God! The USCCB (aka "AmChurch" for the most part) is a collective body without collective authority. Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz has no compunction telling them to go fly a kite as to his diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska. Nor should he.

The Vatican has actual authority. Did the Vatican approve Eastern Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East or PN"C"C schismatics to receive Roman Catholic communion????? I did not think so. Nor am I, as a Roman Catholic, allowed to receive the Eucharist of the Eastern Orthodox Churches either by my Church or by their Church. We have few differences in doctrine but we are not in communion.

Does the discipline of their own churches (capital C for the Eastern Orthodox Churches) bar them from receiving Roman Catholic Communion? I believe that to be the case of the Eastern Orthodox and I am pinging a respected Orthodox woman, Marmema, who would know better than I do and asking her to clarify the position of the Eastern Orthodox Churches. She is invited to ping others who are of the Eastern Orthodox Churches to add to her clarification.

Why am I listening to you if your truck is more important than your soul? Archbishop Burke is not demanding your truck in any event. God gave you free will to use or abuse. You choose to abuse.

The language YOU quoted necessarily recognizes that PN"C"C is NOT part of the Roman Catholic Church by referencing "their own churches."

Judas complained about money too.

105 posted on 12/21/2005 9:08:46 AM PST by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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