Posted on 12/16/2005 6:39:40 PM PST by Petrosius
Does anyone know who is saying mass at the church the next two weeks? Is the diocese in control or the locals?
Thanks.
I know who a few of the worst of the 'bad guys' are (Cleveland, San Francisco, Miami come to mind), but I don't know who the good guys and who the middle of the roaders are. I can do a little better with the ECUSA bishops.
No idea, but I suspect it was the non licit priest that they hired.
My comments on Missouri corporate law has more to do with a rather nasty lawsuit in my own LCMS than this case, but there are some similarities.
I wouldn't think the church would try physically root out this guy, but I don't know how they will proceed.
IIRC, once the penalty of excommunication is imposed, only the Pope may remove it. Prayers for the Archbishop in this very serious and severe aspect of his episcopal ministry, and prayers for these schismatic parishoners, that they may come to realize their error and work to return to the Church.
All sin, in one form or another, is rooted in disobedience to God. Having been made in the image and likeness of God we have been given the great gift of a free will. This free will was given to us so that we could offer ourselves back to God in an act of love that must be a free will offering. When we turn our will away from God to anything else, be it ourselves or some portion of creation, sin enters in.
In this Sunday's Gospel we have the beautiful story of the Annunciation. Here the angel Gabriel comes to Mary to announce that she is to be the mother of the Saviour. We often focus on the fact that Mary bore and gave birth to Jesus. The beauty of her soul, and the sign of her holiness, however is revealed in the words with which she responds: Ecce ancilla Domini, fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word."
Our own holiness corresponds to how we respond to God's grace and live out our own "Behold the servant of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word." The parishioners at St. Stanislaus Kostka have decided that they will not live this out but will follow their own will. In defying their bishop they are defying the authority of Jesus Christ Himself as given to the Apostle and handed down to their successors.
This goes beyond a dispute over property. As the legal owners of the property they had no obligation to cede it to the diocese. They could have kept it and turned it into a Polish cultural center. But they have no right to demand that it be recognized as a parish; this is at the sole discretion of the bishop. When they went outside the diocese and hired their own priest this was an act of schism which by their own actions separated them from the Church. For us Catholics the Church is not just an administrative body of believers. It is the sacramental presence of Jesus Christ in the world. To separate ourselves from the Church is to separate ourselves from the Lord Himself.
And here, I would submit, is a major difference between Catholics and Protestants. While a Protestant may well speak of the need to submit to the will of God, there is no test of this. Instead he submits to what is his own judgment of the will of God, which in the end is nothing more than to submit to his own will. Thus the reason that our Lord established a visible church with a personal authority vested in the Apostles which continues today in the bishops.
The opinions of the excommunicated schismatics of St. Stanislaus Kostka may become vaguely admissible if and when, after appropriate penance and humiliation, any or all have been readmitted to membership in the Roman Catholic Church. Unless and until that has occurred they have become the ecclesiastical equivalent of the Union Band Church of Jesus Christ Fire Baptized. They are outside the Church. God gave them free will to use or abuse. They chose to abuse. Perhaps they will repent. Perhaps not.
As to another of your posts, I certainly am an intolerant person as I should be and as you should be. I am intolerant of abortion, intolerant of homosexuality, intolerant of theological error (expressing myself on the subject usually only when the Roman Catholic Church is attacked by outsiders), intolerant of schismatic opinion, intolerant of the actions of excommunicati. We Catholics are admonished by the Roman Catholic Church to hate the sin and love the sinner.
You are overly sensitive. If you rely upon the understandable defense that a public forum welcomes the opinions of all within its rules, you are correct. No one suggested disciplining you in any way. I cannot imagine such a disciline here since the proprietor is himself a non-Catholic Christian. Likewise, I am free to tell you that this Catholic and other Catholics are not interested in your theological speculations as to how the Roman Catholic Church might best be governed in line with your idiosyncratic imaginings of the meaning of Scripture. You have no horse in this race and, as a non-Catholic, no standing to argue.
As Catholics require a higher degree of qualification and authority (apostolic succession, thepapacy, the Teaching Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church) than some often (The New, Incredibly New, New Good News!!!! Bible or whatever in lieu of the magnificent King James Bible, even though it is not Catholic) chalk on a blackboard translation of Scripture and a few reading lessons, what can we gain by listening to outsiders as to Church internal governance????? We don't listen to us on this subject. Whyever would we listen to you??????
I try not to stick my Catholic nose into the affairs of non-Catholic churches. Vicki Gene as an Episcopalian bishop; the Rev. Mr. Jimmy Swaggert in trouble on moral grounds; whatever, unless the misbehavior is an attack on the Roman Catholic Church. All members of mankind (save Jesus Christ and Mary) are sinners whether popes, cardinals (Law and Mahoney and the late Bernardin, for three examples), archbishops, bishops, priests, ministers, rabbis, nuns, husbands, wives, kids and old folks, the living and the dead. I have enough to concern me as to bad behavior in Catholicism to keep me too busy to worry about the problems of the internal governance of your church, whatever it may be.
You will note that I have not accepted or incorporated herein criticisms of you made by others here. I don't know you or your prior track record here. I assume you to be a person of good will who means well and has been found rooting around in the underwear drawer of the Roman Catholic Faith which you do not share, and probably for what you assume to be our own Catholic good.
Many non-Catholics are strong allies of Catholics in matters of public policy and vice versa. Good manners dictate that we respectively mind our own business as to one another's churches. Accordingly, I ping the LCMS Redgolum and the UCC Jim Noble and the ELCA TonyRo to witness this post.
Finally, there may be several meanings of catholic. We are obviously NOT discussing the common term for universal but rather we ARE discussing the specific term for the Roman Catholic Church.
This is a replay of the PNCC schism(Polish National Catholic Church) that took place in the US 100 years ago, but one big difference was that 100 years ago, many of the Bishops in the US treated various Easteren European groups like dirt, and refused to accomdate them in any way, untill the PNCC schism gained enough momentum for the Bishops to give the various slavic communities pastoral care. In this case, Abp. Burke has established a new Polish ethnic parish at St. Agatha. This is not a schism about ill treatment, or theology or even liturgy, it is about money.
That is not correct. While the Scriptures provide the ultimate test, most protestant churches require obedience and submission. In the churches which follow the episcopal model (Episcopal, Methodist, Lutheran, to some extent the PCUSA, etc.) it isn't much different than what you see in the Roman Catholic church. In those which follow the Presbyterian form of government (Presbyterian, Reformed, etc.) , authority lies in the Presbyteries and Synods or Assemblies. Even in a congregational church (Baptists, Bible, Congregational), if you 'do your own thing' you are likely to find yourself disfellowshiped or excommunicated.
From the membership vows of one church: "Do you submit yourself to the government and discipline of the Church, and promise to study its purity and peace? "; for the candidate for licesure: "Do you promise to submit yourself, in the Lord, to the government of this Presbytery..."; for candidates for ordination: "Do you promise subjection to your brethren in the Lord".
It has been a long, long time since I've set foot in a UCC Church, except for family funerals.
But the point that an RC parish is not a local or particular church, in the sense that the Middleton Gospel chapel is, is correct and well taken.
Most of the dogma in churches are laws of man far removed from the intent of the scriptures. For example there is no prohibition in the Bible for preachers to marry. Now Paul stated HIS personal choice on the matter but he also warned better to marry than burn with lust. If I need advice from clergy involving my marriage I would seek out one who is married so he would have a clue as to what I was saying. That is but one example. Another is things like birth control. No prohibitions in the Bible. It derived from a verse taken out of context where a man was told to produce a child. That was addressed to that man not everybody else. Many persons practice birth control for very good reasons including the health of the mother.
On the other hand Protestant Churches in some sects go overboard even as to prohibit the drinking of wine or some even dancing. Being drunk is a sin as it allows the mind to loose control. But even Paul taught some wine is good for the stomach and it wasn't Welch's grape juice.
Some need the rigidity of authoritarian church leaders overseeing there every waking hour and some do not. I will say this much from what I have seen. Many churches that have the strictest dogma usually have the highest rate of falling away. I've seen it happen to quite a few persons I knew that attended Pentecostal {Charismatic} Churches. The church dogma {laws} become so restricting no one can abide in them and the person gives up. Remember this though if man could follow the law and live it then Jesus would not have had to go to the cross. Christ did what we could not. If a church leader is wrong no matter if he is the president of the Southern Baptist or the Pope I don't follow or submit to the wrong just because he is a church leader. All churches have had their dark ages so to speak. One should attend the church where the Holy Spirit leads them.
Come on now. You can do that in the Roman Catholic church as well. Want to speak in tongues? I'll find you a charismatic Catholic church. Don't believe in tongues in the present age? I'll find you one. Latin Mass? That will take some doing, but you can find those if you really look.
Pro contraception? no difficulties. Pro abortion? you'll have to look a little harder, but you can find that. Pro homosexual? Move to Cleveland. Baptism by immersion? By pouring? just shop around. One that follows the teachings of Rome? Depending on geographic location, it might be hard or easy to find. One that follows historic geographic boundaries for the parish? I know of one in this Diocese which still sets out boundaries.
What were you saying about a Protestant being able to shop around?
"On a side note, Bishop Leibrecht celebrated his 75th birthday on Aug 8, 2005.
He is close to retirement.
Wow, good find. Wonder if he has sent his resignation yet?"
Biz, he sent his resignation in on Aug. 8..as of yet no answer from Rome..Bishop Liebrecht had run a very tight,smooth ship until this hit...FWIW, he is the former superintendent of St. Louis Catholic schools..he is one of the finest men I have ever known.
To: Most but not All
Did. You. Even. Read. Some. Of. The. News. Articles. On. Their. Site?
http://www.saveststans.org/latestNews.html
http://www.saveststans.org/St_Stanislaus_Deed.html
http://www.saveststans.org/history.html
http://www.saveststans.org/FAQ.html
Apparently Wojtyla Himself has even been there.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site%3Asaveststans.org+Wojtyla&btnG=Google+Search
And a rough search of the St.Louis Post Dispatch's site shows nothing in the way of retractions, omissions, or errors relating to "kostka", so One may assume their reporting to-date has been accurate, or at least uncontested.
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Astltoday.com+kostka
A very good thumbnail history is given at http://www.saveststans.org/news_10_04_04.html and if any of you read nothing else, read this page.
Then you may choose to continue in a black-is-white mindset. I'm outta here - no offense: you're all (as am I) just a bunch of words/characters on a screen and some b=w debates just aren't worth it after a certain point.
"On Aug. 8, Leibrecht turned 75, the official retirement age for his chosen profession. His resignation was submitted to Pope Benedict earlier this month.
Moore said it could be anywhere from four months to more than a year before a successor is named.
Leibrecht is planning to retire in Springfield to continue to serve the diocese in any manner possible, Moore said."
As a Catholic I am saddened by this; I cannot help but be suspicious of the hierarchy, which has sold Church property including consecrated churches to pay hush money, and which deserts the people of a large amount of south St. Louis County, which refuses to evangelize the Muslim Bosnian community, about a property on the edge of a newly gentrified and valuable downtown "loft district".
This is not in any way a question of doctrine. What if the council sold the property and divided the proceeds among the parishoners?
The church would then be closed, and the image of the archdiocese maintained; remember that financial scandal can be just as ruinous as heterodoxy.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.