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To: Campion

The extent to which the Apostolic Church venerated Mary is of doubt and is certainly nowhere near the level at which many venerate her today. Afterall, St Paul and the other Apostles rarely mentioned her in their communications with the various churches. Furthermore, Mary is mentioned only once in the Nicene Creed, and that was only in the affirmation of the Incarnation. If the IC and Assumption are so important, then where are they in the Creeds?


50 posted on 12/12/2005 9:09:52 AM PST by bobjam
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To: bobjam
The extent to which the Apostolic Church venerated Mary is of doubt

During the lifetime of the Apostles? Sure, I'll grant that. But the earliest known Marian prayer dates back to AD 180, which is pretty early. (The canon of the NT was in flux until around 400.)

Furthermore, Mary is mentioned only once in the Nicene Creed, and that was only in the affirmation of the Incarnation. If the IC and Assumption are so important, then where are they in the Creeds?

First of all, I wouldn't say that they are as important as the truths mentioned in the creeds. Also, remember that the Nicene creed, in particular, was composed in response to the Arian heresy. Not surprisingly, it concentrates on the articles of faith the Arians denied.

The IC required about a thousand years of reflection and theological development. It's noteworthy that St. Augustine specifically exempted Mary from his discussion of original sin, though.

67 posted on 12/12/2005 11:06:44 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: bobjam
I think it is more important to understand the reason she is venerated. It is because she carried Christ within her - and we too can do this, in a different way of course.

But I can personally attest to icons of her dating to the 4th-7th centuries, still present in ancient monasteries and churches in Georgia. I guess it depends on how early you want to consider the church at that time period.

74 posted on 12/12/2005 2:38:00 PM PST by MarMema (http://www.curenikolette.org/)
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To: bobjam
"Only" in affirmation of the Incarnation. LOL. "Only"--that Jesus was born of a woman, a virgin, Mary etc. is repeated in every important orthodox text of the first centuries, in the letter of Ignatius of Antioch, in the Epistle to Diognetus etc. precisely because the affirmation that he was born of a woman is an affirmation of his humanity and the earliest heresies were denials of his humanity, not of his divinity (Gnosticism, Docetism). "Only" as an affirmation of the Incarnation! That he was born of a woman, that he had a human mother is one of the most important affirmations of our faith. "What has not been assumed cannot be redeemed." In Mary lies one of the main proofs of the humanity of Christ and thus of our salvation.

Only,indeed.

83 posted on 12/12/2005 4:47:50 PM PST by Dionysiusdecordealcis
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