A Note for Evangelicals Considering Rome

Orthodox Christian Information Center ^ | 1997 | Clark Carlton

[Uri’el-2012]

ad>Your position would argue for a sinless Joseph as well, would it not?

C>That's not an impossibility, of course, and something which would be a permissable pious opinion for Catholics.

However, Joseph was not Christ's father but his foster father, and it's not clear that the commandment would obligate Jesus in the same way.

Joseph is found Righteous;
Mary is not!
In the Holy Word of G-d that is.

b'shem Y'shua

[Campion]

Joseph is found Righteous; Mary is not! In the Holy Word of G-d that is.

No, she's only declared "already completely graced" by the mouth of an archangel who came directly from the throne of God. And then she's called "mother of my Lord" by St. Elizabeth speaking under inspiration, and declares, also under inspiration, "My soul doth magnify the Lord ... all generations to come shall call me blessed ...".

But don't let that stop you from your selective, polemical, misreading of Scripture.

[Knitting A Conundrum]

You just insulted Jesus' momma. You think he appreciates that? Son of God AND son of Mary. He never ever repudiated her. The evidence we have is that he listened to her and made sure she was cared for he he died. To imply she wasn't righteous when event the angel said she was filled with grace is to insult her memory.

Think about how you would feel if someone insulted a mother than you loved. Now think about how someone who is God in heaven would feel about someone insulting someone he loved as close as a mother-son can be.

Not agreeing with the catholic position is one thing. Insulting the memory of Mary's committment to Christ is another thing all together.

[MarMema]

What you say is not true. It is a widely held belief among most Orthodox that the two main western branches of Christianity have more in common with each other than with us. Scores of Orthodox websites attest to this. Additionally, Khomiakov is recognized as a great theologian by most Orthodox outside of the Russian church.

OCA question and answer page

"QUESTION:

Would you say that the Orthodox Church is closer to the Roman Catholic Church than to the Protestant churches?

ANSWER:

It is hard to answer that question easily without giving the wrong impression. The Protestant churches, as you know, came out of the Roman Church when this body was already separated from the Eastern Orthodox Church. Thus, as one Russian theologian put it in the last century, it is probably true to say that the Roman and Reformed Protestant churches are much closer to each other -- historically, spiritually, theologically, culturally, psychologically -- than the Orthodox Church is to either.

Difference between Orthodoxy and western confessions

Overview of Eastern Orthodoxy

"Eastern Orthodoxy shares the root of Biblical Christology with both Western Catholicism and Protestantism. It is, however, a vastly different school of theology from either traditions in the West."

[Uri’el-2012]

How do you read Matthew 1:19?

Mt. 1:19 Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not
want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to
divorce her quietly.

Mt. 1:20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord
appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David,
do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because
what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

b'shem Y'shua

[MarMema]

First time I've ever seen this problem acknowledged within Orthodoxy

I have posted here in the past, numerous times, that nationalism is a great sin and found far too often within the Orthodox church. Not that I am a theologian or anything...but I think most of us within the church see it as a problem.

[Claud]

Long article which I found interesting.

My two cents, I also found Hahn's dismissal of Eastern Orthodoxy to be somewhat thin and flippant.

I agree with the result, just not the means he used to get there. :)

[Nihil Obstat]

We agree that Joseph is righteous. But where do you get the idea that Mary isn't?

[xzins]

Yes, we do hold scripture as the higher authority than any human.

That is only sensible, in my view.

Why? Because as Paul said, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." As Jeremiah said, "all our righteousness is as filthy rags."

Or...as Lord Acton said, "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

All, of course, because any man made priest, made a bishop, a cardinal, a pope is still a sinful man.

Better to trust the word of the apostles, inspired by God, preserved in scripture.

[Uri’el-2012]

As Jeremiah said, "all our righteousness is as filthy rags."

Isaiah ???

b'shem Y'shua

[xzins]

The word 'trinity' does not appear, but evidence for the doctrine is everywhere in scripture.

The expression "immaculate conception" does not appear in scripture, and the evidence for it does not show at all in scripture....no place at all.

The illustration is regarding what Jesus would want for his mother....if that is legitimate argumentation in one instance then it must be considered in others.

The point, of course, is that one is appealing emotion and eisegesis and not at all to any scriptural justification whatsoever. Hahn knew this and simply avoided it (immaculate conception) or glossed it over (the assumption.)

[Uri’el-2012]

We agree that Joseph is righteous. But where do you get the idea that Mary isn't?

Did not say that;

I said that I can not find it stated in the Holy Word of G-d.

b'shem Y'shua

[xzins]

My poor, poor memory....thanks :>)

Isa 64:6 - But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

[Uri’el-2012]

Isa 64:6 - But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

I have been taught that "filthy rags"
is a euphemism for the Hebrew
"used menstrual cloths"

Even more vivid !

b'shem Y'shua

[TomSmedley]

Thank you for your fascinating post. I found the references to the enlightenment heresy of "nationalism" as it muddied the Balkan waters very interesting. I am studying the imposition of a nationalistic secular order in Turkey, with special attention to the techniques a secular, rationalistic elite use to control a religious populution.

Please send me links to articles you know of that deal with this issue. Thanks again,

[TomSmedley]

Really, I think it's up to y'all to explain why you think Jesus, who (you presumably agree) kept the commandment "Honor thy father and thy mother" perfectly, perfectly honored his mother by creating her spiritually dead, enslaved by sin, and in bondage to the devil.

Sorry, the fabrication of über-human demigods to worship leaves me cold. The Trinity is deity enough for me. Sorry God Himself is not enough for you.

[JohnnyZ]

In the final analysis, what is the real difference between the improvements of Christianity made by the Roman Catholic Church and the improvements wrought by liberals such as Spong?

I could take this seriously if not for the tendency to take cheap and unwarranted digs like this. Juvenile.

[JohnnyZ]

Sorry, the fabrication of über-human demigods to worship

I can see Catholic/Orthodox reunion is within reach!

Seriously, get ahold of yourself and think of whom you are speaking.

[x5452]

I don't see Orthodox churches divided amoung ethnic lines.

Moscow is in Communion with most of the 'ethnic parishes' who are also in communion with the eccumenical Patriarch, etc.

It isn't franchised. You cannot walk into one Orthodox church anywhere in the world and expect the same language and all the same traditions. They are united in doctrine, and spirituality without denying ethnic differences.

I don't see this as a bad thing.

[x5452]

Speaking of the councils:

Second Ecumenical Council
The Second Ecumenical Council took place in Constantinople in 381 AD, and is also known as the First Council of Constantinople.
The second of the seven Ecumenical Councils dealt with the following:
Expanding and adapting the Nicene Creed, in particular, developing the teaching upon the Holy Spirit
Altering the provisions of the Canon VI of the First Council in Nicea
Regarding the teaching of the Holy Spirit, the Council affirmed him to be God "even as the Father and Son are God: who proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and together glorified." After about 381, Arianism ceased to be a relevant issue, save for a few remote parts of the empire.
The controversial aspect of this Council was Canon III, which gave Constantinople second place in honor among the sees. They called it the New Rome. Rome and Alexandria both resented this, and feared that a power play might come into effect by Constantinople. In fact, Rome ignored this canon entirely until AD 1215, after the Great Schism, and even then there were political reasons for Rome's 'granting' of Constantinople second place in honor. Alexandria, formally second in honor among the sees, was first in honor in the Eastern sees. With the third canon, it became third in honor among the sees, and second in honor in the Eastern sees.
Alexandria played a part in this sharp conflict between it and Constantinople, and while there was political maneuvering on both sides that saw the felling two bishops of Constantinople, there was more at stake as we approach the Third Council.

Third Ecumenical Council
The Third Ecumenical Council was held in Ephesus, Asia Minor, in 431 under Emperor Theodosius II, grandson of Theodosius the Great. It is also known as the Council of Ephesus. Approximately 200 bishops were present, though procedings began in haste before the arrival of the bishops from the west. The procedings were conducted in a heated atmosphere of confrontation and recriminations. It was the third of the Ecumenical Councils, and was chiefly concerned with Nestorianism.
[edit]
Christological Controversies

According to the Council, Nestorianism overemphasized the human nature of Christ at the expense of the divine. The Council denounced Patriarch Nestorius' teaching as erroneous. Nestorius taught that the Virgin Mary gave birth to a man, Jesus Christ, not God the Logos. The Logos only dwelt in Christ, as in a Temple (Christ, therefore, was only Theophoros: the "Bearer of God.") Consequently, the Virgin Mary should be called Christotokos ("Mother of Christ") and not Theotokos ("Birth-giver of God").
The Council decreed that Christ was one person, not two separate "people": fully God and fully man, with a rational soul and body. The Virgin Mary is Theotokos because she gave birth not to a mere man but to God as a man. The union of the two natures of Christ took place in such a fashion that one did not disturb the other.
The Council also declared the text of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed to be complete and forbade any additional change to it. In addition, it condemned Pelagianism.