Some Megachurches Closing for Christmas

http://enews.earthlink.net/article/nat?guid=20051206/43951ad0_3ca6_15526200512061773227222 ^ | December 06, 2005 4:55 PM EST | By RACHEL ZOLL (AP Religion Writer)

[P-Marlowe]

So what you are saying is that when Jesus said "I am the bread" he was really speaking metaphorically?

[SoothingDave]

You are not asserting merely that God is in the bread.

You are asserting that the bread is God.

Isn't that true?

No, it isn't true. You need to study more. How many times will you need to be told, how many links must you be given?

We are claiming that God is God. Not that "bread is God" or that "God is bread."

The word "trasnsubstantiation" was not chosen on a lark. It means something. It means the substance changes.

If the substance changes from bread to God, there is no longer any "bread" to talk about. It is gone. It ceases to exist. What was once bread is now the Body of Christ.

SD

[SoothingDave]

In the miracle of the wine, the wine actually became wine in both appearance and substance. That is how we know it was a miracle. Jesus did not serve up a batch of water and tell everyone it was wine, he took the water and made it into wine and the people saw wine and the tasted wine. In the eucharist you have to take the word of the Priest or the Church that the wine is really blood. It is by all appearances wine. So no "miracle" has occurred. But it isn't wine and God is not lying to your senses. You taste wine because it is wine in both substance and appearance.

See? When you really want to, it seems like you understand at least part of transubstantiation. Go with that.

The Eucharist is actually 4 miracles all in one. The complete substance of the bread and wine is obliterated. The substance of God is made present. The accidents of bread and wine are maintained though the underlying substance vanishes. And the accidents of God are suppressed from attaching to God's substance.

SD

[SoothingDave]

So what you are saying is that when Jesus said "I am the bread" he was really speaking metaphorically?

For your case, yes. Jesus is not literally bread. Jesus does literally make bread into His Body.

SD

[Rutles4Ever]

There are two Greek expressions for eating: one is 'to eat' in the general e.g. "I ate breakfast this morning" - which could mean I had a Smoothie on the way into work. No one ever says "I drank breakfast this morning".

The Greek meaning of "to eat" in the translation of John Ch. 6 means "to gnaw" - not "to eat" as in the above example, but to GNAW as in, to eat a piece of steak with your teeth.

Without knowing this, you could easily assume that "to eat" is simply "to consume" in whatever sense you want it to mean. "To gnaw", however, is not a general action.

If you accept the literality of John 6 when it comes to Jesus becoming bread at the Eurcharist, then you must also take the statements in John 6 literally where Jesus states that "I am the bread".

It's all about context. Without context, you have nothing but words that you can unilaterally pick and choose as literal or symbolic. What's the point of Jesus making reference to His ascension in the middle of all of this? The flesh profits me NOTHING. It's USELESS. Only the spirit - FAITH - will profit my soul. Why on earth is He telling His disciples to take this teaching on faith if He could just as easily explain the "symbology" as He does in other "parables"? You're applying a modus operandi to Jesus that He displays nowhere else in the Bible. Jesus didn't teach to confuse. He taught that others would understand. Any guesses why He doesn't re-explain His teaching? Because there is no other explanation. It's not a metaphor. It's not a cute way of speaking in riddles. You cannot rationalize your position, period, end of sentence.

Well if that was meant to be taken literally, then at the incarnation Jesus did not take on Human flesh, he only appeared to take on human flesh.

You answered your own question in pointing out that Jesus isn't literally a vine. Why not? It says so right there! Context, maybe?

Answer this, if you don't mind:

St. Paul in Corinthians says, "Whosoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.

In Jesus' time, being guilty of someone's 'body and blood' was a direct accusation of murder. If that's the case, how is "the bread" just bread? Can bread be murdered? No, but flesh can...

[Uri’el-2012]

In the miracle of the wine, the wine actually became wine in both appearance and substance. That is how we know it was a miracle. Jesus did not serve up a batch of water and tell everyone it was wine, he took the water and made it into wine and the people saw wine and the tasted wine. In the eucharist you have to take the word of the Priest or the Church that the wine is really blood. It is by all appearances wine. So no "miracle" has occurred. But it isn't wine and God is not lying to your senses. You taste wine because it is wine in both substance and appearance.

If a miracle like Cana occurred then you would taste blood. You don't because it isn't.

The miracle is even greater when you consider that the water
that was turned into wine was mixed with ashes of the Red Heifer
in order to create the Water of Purification.

see Numbers 19

b'shem Y'shua

[P-Marlowe]

The Eucharist is actually 4 miracles all in one. The complete substance of the bread and wine is obliterated. The substance of God is made present. The accidents of bread and wine are maintained though the underlying substance vanishes. And the accidents of God are suppressed from attaching to God's substance.

I don't suppose you have any scripture references that describe this process?

[Rutles4Ever]

If a miracle like Cana occurred then you would taste blood. You don't because it isn't.

So, because you can't see God with your own two eyes, He doesn't exist? Because that's the logical extension of enslaving God's reality to our senses, and for the simple fact that "wherever two or more are gathered in my name, there I am with them".

[P-Marlowe]

I consider the turning of water into wine to be one of the most significant miracles of his ministry on many levels.

Thanks.

<><

Marlowe

[P-Marlowe]

So, because you can't see God with your own two eyes, He doesn't exist?

No, he absolutely exists. He is present at the communion. We partake of him spiritually and not physically. If the experience were physical, then we would be physically immortal after the communion. We are not. We have received spiritual life through the body and the blood and that is the experience that is remembered through the communion.

God is not attempting to trick our senses by making us taste bread and wine when in fact we are eating the physical body and blood of our Lord. The experience is spiritual and not physical. We physically partake of bread and wine and we spiritually partake of the body and blood of Christ. We taste bread and wine because on the physical level we are partaking of bread and wine. As was stated earlier on this thread, Christ is the "host" and not the main course.

I think we may have beaten this horse to death. It seems it all started when someone made the claim that Catholics worship God in church and Protestants don't.

[P-Marlowe]

The Greek meaning of "to eat" in the translation of John Ch. 6 means "to gnaw" - not "to eat" as in the above example, but to GNAW as in, to eat a piece of steak with your teeth.

Just one last rhetorical question: When is the last time you had to physically "gnaw" on a communion wafer?

Now I have had some Kosher bagels in my life that you really had to gnaw at, but I don't believe anyone has ever "gnawed" on a communion wafer.

[Rutles4Ever]

We partake of him spiritually and not physically.

Then communion is not necessary. Simple prayer is partaking of Him spiritually.

We have received spiritual life through the body and the blood and that is the experience that is remembered through the communion.

Gazing upon a crucifix reminds me of His sacrifice, too. Why do we have to eat something, too?

We taste bread and wine because on the physical level we are partaking of bread and wine

So every time I crack out the red wine and some dry white toast, I'm spiritually partaking in God? Does something else happen at Mass that makes it different than wolfing down Brown'n'Serve rolls and a jug of Gallo?

[Rutles4Ever]

When is the last time you had to physically "gnaw" on a communion wafer?

They had to gnaw even on unleavened bread in Jesus' time. It didn't dissolve on the tongue like a communion wafer.

[SoothingDave]

So, because you can't see God with your own two eyes, He doesn't exist?

No, he absolutely exists.

You have scientific evidence of this? There is a change in the matter and energy in the room, or in the individual communicant, during a Communion service?

SD

[P-Marlowe]

Gazing upon a crucifix reminds me of His sacrifice, too.

Gazing upon a crucifix reminds me of the 2nd commandment.

[MP5SD]

Perhaps all ye Evangelical Bashers should spend some time in the Book of Romans;

14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

I am quite sick of the continual evangelical baiting and bashing that goes on here. The obvious intent of the OP was to cast aspersions on the brethren

I don't know how any truly serious student of the Bible can conclude that the Sabbath is on Sunday except perhaps by embracing replacement theology you can somehow eliminate the Jewish Sabbath from history.

Perhaps you should MYOB while searching YOUR OWN HOUSE house for leaven.

[Uri’el-2012]

Just one last rhetorical question: When is the last time you had to physically "gnaw" on a communion wafer?

Now I have had some Kosher bagels in my life that you really had to gnaw at, but I don't believe anyone has ever "gnawed" on a communion wafer.

When we celebrate & remember Y'shua's
last Passover meal we use Matzos and wine.

b'shem Y'shua

[Rutles4Ever]

This is because you don't understand theology. The Sabbath we celebrate was born on Sunday, the day of the Resurrection of Christ, the "eighth day" of creation, the New Jerusalem.

[Rutles4Ever]

You didn't answer any of my questions...

Are you actually equating "gazing upon a crucifix" with idol worship?

[P-Marlowe]

You shall not make a graven image for yourself, or any likeness in the heavens above, or in the earth beneath, or in the waters under the earth; you shall not bow to them, and you shall not serve them; for I am Jehovah your God, a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third and on the fourth generation, to those that hate Me;
(Exodus 20:4-5 LITV)