The Blasphemy of Open Communion

Exactly. Thank you.

Avarice is greed.

We are all still obligated to avoid sin and seek forgiveness when they sin. One will certainly be forgiven of future sins if one repents of them. If a person comes to Christ and repents of his past sins this does not mean he doesn't have to seek forgiveness anymore for sins he may commit in the future.

When you say "obligated" (free will choice) and "have to" (free will choice), I am assuming you mean that in the sense of an ongoing requirement to maintain the status of salvation. After the "initial" salvation, is there scriptural support for continuous, life-long, free will choices being correctly made in order to remain saved?

[Me]In Catholicism, can salvation be won and lost on a week-to-week basis dependent upon one's confessional status?

[You] It could be, though hopefully one is not losing it every week!

The point appearing to me is that in Catholicism, there is (or is a potential for) a constant flux in salvation status. As a self-proclaimed true seeker I must ask you, how do you all have peace? It appears that no Catholic can ever be certain of his or her salvation. Even as a believer who is right with God, all could be lost on a single mistake.

I know that Catholics fully believe in and cherish God's gifts. Some of God's gifts take the form of individual talents. Some people were born with the potential to be great piano players or great football players. Regardless of whether the potential is ever realized, the talent itself is always present. Why isn't God's gift of salvation like this? Once accepted, it remains to be seen what will be made with it through sanctification (like the developing of the gift). And, once accepted, salvation is complete (like the existence of the gift). The Spirit indwells you and you may rest in 100% confidence. That leads me to ask: what happens to the indwelling Spirit when a person loses his salvation status and then dies, destined for hell? Is there any scripture on this point?

When a person rejects God's grace and sins, he may very well lose his salvation, if the sin is serious and he refuses to seek forgiveness before he dies.

Here, I'd like to address the "serious" issue. Is this the difference between a mortal and a venial(sp) sin? Is it the difference between an intentional and unintentional sin? (On this thread, my fellow Freepers have taught me well :) Is there any scriptural support for losing one's established salvation for failure to confess a serious sin?

If a person has at some point repented of his sins, but later sins and doesn't seek forgiveness, then he won't be forgiven when he dies and faces Jesus. ... However, as you pointed out, not all Catholics have the opportunity to receive this sacrament before they die. We do not believe that God would hold this against a contrite soul. If someone needs Confession but, through no fault of their own, cannot receive this sacrament before they die, they can still be forgiven of their sins. If one is truly sorry for their sins and wishes to be reconciled again with Christ, then they will be forgiven. ... The good thief crucified next to Jesus is one example of this.

I appreciate your being straightforward in saying again that a "saved" person could nevertheless wind up in hell because of a failure to confess sin before death. I am a little confused on the "contrite" doctrine though. You say, in effect, that someone "in need" (I assume you mean "in need for salvation") of confession, but has no access to a priest before death, can still be forgiven if he is contrite. You cite the thief beside Jesus as an example. Luke 23: 41-43 -

[41 "We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." 42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." 43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."]

I don't mean to nitpick, but that sounds like a whale of a confession to me. Catholics are like anyone else, we all go through troubled periods when we are not thinking straight and do not have our hearts focused on God as we should. During these temporary times, it is possible for anyone to be un-remorseful of a given sin. Is there any scriptural support for the idea that such a Catholic would be doomed to hell if he died during this time?

Finally, I've never heard a Catholic come out and say that only Catholics get into Heaven. However, it is also true that no non-Catholic could ever pass the tests you have laid out for salvation (keeping the Commandments, Catholic baptism, forgiveness of sins by a priest (plus a contrite heart at death absent a priest), taking Catholic communion, etc.). So, with a smile on my face I ask: "What chance does little ole' me have for eternal life?"

Sorry, somehow I forgot to address the end of your post.

How do we accept the salvation Christ offers us? Through faith - but by faith we don't just mean intellectual assent to certain beliefs about Christ. Faith must be lived out, and doing this includes following the will of God.

Your answer agrees with the need for grace and faith. However, if (after intitial salvation) Catholics believe that free will, and life long, choices for following the will of God are also required for ultimate salvation, how does this square with verse 9? -

9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

After the "initial" salvation, is there scriptural support for continuous, life-long, free will choices being correctly made in order to remain saved?

I think 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 is a good example of this:

9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Paul is definitely talking about salvation here, and he mentions a continual struggle with his body--"lest he should be a castaway"--which I can't interpret any other way but as a concern with losing his own salvation.

Paul also said in Philippians 2:12 to "work out your own salvation in fear and trembling"

Jesus taught that ALL Sins can be forgiven. He did however describe a sinner that will not have forgiveness.

Mark 3: 28 “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; 29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”— 30 because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.”

This is not an easy sin to commit and what Jesus is saying is that such a person "never has forgiveness" or will never accept the gift of life that Jesus is his savior.

The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit requires knowledge and belief that Jesus is the savior and that His works are the works of God and that His Word is God. It requires that the person knowingly twist the works and words of God in order to deny what the person knows is true. In short, he knowingly tries to cause his Brother to stumble away from God.

I don't believe that Jesus is saying that this man cannot be saved by God, I believe he is saying that he won't allow himself to be saved by God.

I am not familiar with Catholic doctrine, but i am willing to bet that the doctrine on mortal sin is an attempt to classify actions that might characterize or exemplify blasphemy of the spirit. In that this sin requires knowledge of the heart, its hard for me to say that certain actions in and of themselves would done by a man is "never has forgiveness".

I think 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 is a good example of this:

"9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

Paul is definitely talking about salvation here, and he mentions a continual struggle with his body--"lest he should be a castaway"--which I can't interpret any other way but as a concern with losing his own salvation.

I can see where you're coming from. The same passage from the NIV bible says it this way:

"24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Paul is using a local metaphor, the Isthmian games. Winners of events were given a wreath of pine to wear as a crown. Obviously, it would eventually wilt. Another interpretation would be that the "crown" and "the prize" refer to rewards in Heaven. Many other verses speak of works-based Heavenly rewards. For example:

1 Cor. 3:12-14 - "12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward."

2 John 8 - "8 Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully."

But, I agree that good arguments could be made on both sides of this one.

Paul also said in Philippians 2:12 to "work out your own salvation in fear and trembling"

Phil. 2:12-13 - "12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose."

Since both verses comprise one thought, I do think that God is talking about human works. I suppose our interpretations come down to "working for salvation" vs. "working with our already established salvation, in order to do God's will".

"Work out" could mean "seek after" or it could mean "do God's work through". I admit it is a tricky verse, and could be legitimately interpreted in more than one way.

I don't believe that Jesus is saying that this man cannot be saved by God, I believe he is saying that he won't allow himself to be saved by God.

Are you saying that such a sinner may be yet saved at a later date, and that the word "unforgivable" only refers to any given point in time? I read somewhere that the unforgivable sin would be impossible to be committed today because it must happen in the presence of Jesus, to his face. I have no idea if that is valid.

The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit requires knowledge and belief that Jesus is the savior and that His works are the works of God and that His Word is God. It requires that the person knowingly twist the works and words of God in order to deny what the person knows is true. In short, he knowingly tries to cause his Brother to stumble away from God.

Good grief! I've never heard a better description of people like Bishop Robinson. Do you think such people have committed the unforgivable sin?

Are you saying that such a sinner may be yet saved at a later date, and that the word "unforgivable" only refers to any given point in time?

In simple terms, I think God can save all men but not all men want to be saved. If I go further I enter the discussion of predestination and election, which isn't necessary to understand that some men will refuse God no matter what.

I read somewhere that the unforgivable sin would be impossible to be committed today because it must happen in the presence of Jesus, to his face. I have no idea if that is valid.

This verse says it is blaspheming the Holy Spirit that is a problem, not Jesus. Also, in that Christians consider that Jesus is present everywhere 2 or more are gathered, it would seem that it is possible to sin against Jesus face to face.

Good grief! I've never heard a better description of people like Bishop Robinson. Do you think such people have committed the unforgivable sin?

Probably not. I don't think he truly believes that Jesus died for him. I think he perceives Jesus as a concept not man and certainly not God.

If one is not a member then the Mortal sin rule obviously doesn't apply to them? eh? :)

I don't think he truly believes that Jesus died for him. I think he perceives Jesus as a concept not man and certainly not God.

A sad, but true commentary, prescient of his fate.

Got it...thank you for clarifying, i do appreciate it!

It is my fault. I started my response in 47 with "no", meaning that mortal sin is not the same as unforgivable. But them in my haste, I proceeded to say after a comma "mortal sin can be absolved". But for the comma, the meaning would be what you perceived it to be. Sorry.