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To: TheGeezer
this pastoral order from John Paul the Great:

c) In the present circumstances I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre, that they may fulfil the grave duty of remaining united to the Vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church, and of ceasing their support in any way for that movement. Everyone should be aware that formal adherence to the schism is a grave offence against God and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church's law.(8)

First of all, an appeal is NOT an order. Interesting that you didn't post the rest of that article in which he goes on to state:

To all those Catholic faithful who feel attached to some previous liturgical and disciplinary forms of the Latin tradition I wish to manifest my will to facilitate their ecclesial communion by means of the necessary measures to guarantee respect for their rightful aspirations. In this matter I ask for the support of the bishops and of all those engaged in the pastoral ministry in the Church.

Hmmm. Would you say that Those Claiming Obedience to the Pontiff, Within the Church have fulfilled Their Obligation? I would think that They should be held to the fire of obedience before anyone, don't you? Before we all reach for the speck in the eye of the SSPX, how about removing the planks from our own.

how can one defend Tradition by disobeying the pope?

One cannot.

I simply cannot understand why heads in SSPX do not explode containing this contradiction. Oh, valiant logical contortions emanate periodically from SSPX presses that seem to explain things, but they do not.

Really? The church has formed her own pretzels of logic attempting to explain away Quo Primum.

Let all everywhere adopt and observe what has been handed down by the Holy Roman Church, the Mother and Teacher of the other churches, and let Masses not be sung or read according to any other formula than that of this Missal published by Us. This ordinance applies henceforth, now, and forever, throughout all the provinces of the Christian world, to all patriarchs, cathedral churches, collegiate and parish churches, be they secular or religious, both of men and of women - even of military orders - and of churches or chapels without a specific congregation in which conventual Masses are sung aloud in choir or read privately in accord with the rites and customs of the Roman Church.

-Pope Pius V

101 posted on 09/18/2005 10:22:58 AM PDT by TradicalRC (Benedicamus Domino.)
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To: TradicalRC
A pastoral order is made using the word appeal and that is the qualification cited to rationalize disobedience? In a spirit of loving admonition the pope phrases an order describing excommunication as the consequence of noncompliance using the word appeal, and that is your excuse to continue in disobedience? That is pure sophistry. The pharisees were less legalistic in their dealings with Jesus than that!

Hmmm. Would you say that Those Claiming Obedience to the Pontiff, Within the Church have fulfilled Their Obligation? I would think that They should be held to the fire of obedience before anyone, don't you? Before we all reach for the speck in the eye of the SSPX, how about removing the planks from our own.

Oh, for pete's sake: "Nyah, nyah, nyah, I won't do it until he does!" Are you serious? One disobedience is the logical support for another? Non sequitur! Again, how one can admit that disobedience of the pope is not permissible, and then disobey the pope, is amazing, especially over the form of liturgy. The Eucharist is the Eucharist is the Eucharist. Illicit worship is still worship, but when the pope says that adherence to a schism means loss of salvation, is the illicit worship of that schism of any value? I think not! I am not the one condemning adherence to a schism! The POPE is condemning it! My condemnations in such matters are ineffective, irrelevant, meaningless, and perhaps sinful. But I am not making any such condemnations! The POPE condemns adherence, participation in, SSPX!

The church has formed her own pretzels of logic attempting to explain away Quo Primum.

For heaven's sake, what pretzels of logic? Quo Primum was not an ex cathedra statement! It was not dogma! It was not doctrine! It was a disciplinary matter, like priestly celibacy, or like the age at which fasting in lent is necessary, or like how many hours of fasting is necessary before reception of Holy Communion. It is something that the pope can change. This is NOT a "pretzel of logic"!

117 posted on 09/18/2005 5:11:54 PM PDT by TheGeezer
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