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To: Hermann the Cherusker

Do you believe Baptism of Desire is salvific, as defined at the Council of Trent? It doesn't appear so. Wouldn't that make you a heretic in obstinate denial of clearly stated truth?

My own view is ultimately, God will save whom He wants and would more likely send an Angel to instruct and baptize before allowing such a loose interpretation of his doctrine to be true. Charles Coulombe addresses your position on what Trent actually stated very accurately. Should a magisterial decree be issued that clarifies this topic into something that I must accept and rules out Baptism with water and the Holy Spirit alone will save one, I'll submit to it. :

7. But doesn't the Council of Trent teach Baptism of Desire?

Not at all. It declares that the "Votum" (vow, NOT mere desire) to baptised can justify one. But it does not say that one can be saved that way. Justification is the state of being pleasing to God, of having one's sins forgiven---such as you and I are when we step out of the confessional. But that is certainly not the same as being saved. The proof of this is that Trent anathematises anyone who would "make a metaphor" of Our Lord's words, "Unless a man be born again..." That means we must take that phrase----a phrase which does not permit exceptions---literally. Certainly, no one will claim that Baptism of Desire is anything more than a metaphor. What is forgotten here is that Baptism does not just forgive sins. It directly applies the merits of Christ's death to the individual soul; it makes of the baptised person a "new creature" (no longer a member of fallen humanity, which of its nature cannot enter into heaven, he becomes a member of redeemed humanity, which can); it places an indelible mark on the soul; it grafts him into the Church, which is the Mystical Body of Christ; and it infuses knowledge of the Truth in a sub- or superintellectual manner---and all of these are necessary to enter into Heaven. An individual who is in the state of justification but has not received these other effects, is like one of the just of the Old Testament. Their sins were forgiven them; but they could not ascend to Heaven precisely because they were sons of Adam. They had to be united to Christ, because "no one ascends to the Father except through me." This union was accomplished for them by Christ when He "descended into hell," as we say in the Apostle's Creed. For those of us in the New Law, that can only happen through Baptism. Of course, it is far easier for us than for the Old Law people, who had no sacramental graces.

160 posted on 08/10/2005 9:46:20 AM PDT by Gerard.P (The lips of liberals drip with honey while their hands drip with blood--Bishop Williamson)
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To: Gerard.P
My own view is ultimately, God will save whom He wants and would more likely send an Angel to instruct and baptize before allowing such a loose interpretation of his doctrine to be true.

It does not seem clear to me that Angels can administer the Sacraments, nor is there anything in history or theology to lend credence to such wild speculation.

Charles Coulombe addresses your position on what Trent actually stated very accurately.

My position? No, the literal words of Trent. Not the heretical speculations of Messer. Coulombe.

"Justification ... since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God." (Council of Trent, Session 6, Decree on Justification, Chapter 4)

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not ineed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema. (Council of Trent, Session 7, Canons on the Sacraments)

The above decree provides the definition of the meaning of St. John 3.5, which excludes what Messer Coulombe makes of it below.

The proof of this is that Trent anathematises anyone who would "make a metaphor" of Our Lord's words, "Unless a man be born again..." That means we must take that phrase----a phrase which does not permit exceptions---literally.

Moreover, such an interpretation of Trent as Messer. Coulombe makes above is itself highly tenditious. The Canon he refers to says:

CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.(Council of Trent, Session 7, Canons on Baptism)

The metaphor is not that the Sacrament of Baptism may be had by desire, which has just been clearly explained twice by the Council, but that water is not necessary for the Sacrament of Baptism, but is merely metaphorical - i.e. the Protestant doctrine of invisible Baptism of the Holy Spirit, water Baptism being merely a symbolic rite and not a substantive Sacrament.

Continuing with Trent, since we've clearly established that Justification is possible apart from actual Baptism by Water by the desired intention to recieve it. No lets adress this comment by Messer. Coulombe by continuing further with Trent:

It declares that the "Votum" (vow, NOT mere desire) to baptised can justify one. But it does not say that one can be saved that way. Justification is the state of being pleasing to God, of having one's sins forgiven---such as you and I are when we step out of the confessional. But that is certainly not the same as being saved.

"For, whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified,-as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches,-and this virtue always precedes and accompanies and follows their good works, which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious before God,-we must believe that nothing further is wanting to the justified, to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained also in its (due) time, if so be, however, that they depart in grace: seeing that Christ, our Saviour, saith: If any one shall drink of the water that I will give him, he shall not thirst for ever; but it shall become in him a fountain of water springing up unto life everlasting." (Council of Trent, Session 6, Decree on Justification, Chapter 15)

This section clearly contradicts Messer. Coulombe's heresy. He reemphasizes his heresy in what is below just to make sure everyone understands his position clearly:

An individual who is in the state of justification but has not received these other effects, is like one of the just of the Old Testament. Their sins were forgiven them; but they could not ascend to Heaven precisely because they were sons of Adam. ... For those of us in the New Law, that can only happen through Baptism.

But, Trent is very clear that a man who is justified will be saved if he dies in that state. It says emphatically "we must believe" this and it says nothing further is wanting to him once he is justified but to persevere by grace in that state.

You quite clearly don't believe that, yet an ecumenical council said you must. Ergo, you are spouting heresy.

170 posted on 08/10/2005 11:11:12 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Gerard.P
From the Roman Catechism (Catechism of the Council of Trent for Parish Priests) issued by order of Pope Pius V:

"The Third Degree Of Prayer: The Prayer Of Unbelievers: A third degree of prayer is that which is offered by those who have not as yet been illumined with the light of faith; but who, when the divine goodness illumines in their souls the feeble natural light, are strongly moved to the desire and pursuit of truth and most earnestly pray for a knowledge of it.

"If they persevere in such dispositions, God, in His mercy, will not neglect their earnest endeavours, as we see verified by the example of Cornelius the centurion. The doors of the divine mercy are closed against none who sincerely ask for mercy."

From the Encyclical Quanto Conficiamur Moerore (Encyclical of the notorious modernist Pope Pius IX) August 10, 1863:

7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching.

There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

From Singulari Quidem, also by Pius IX:

“The Church clearly declares that the only hope of salvation for mankind is placed in the Christian faith, which teaches the truth, scatters the darkness of ignorance by the splendor of its light, and works through love. This hope of salvation is placed in the Catholic Church which, in preserving the true worship, is the solid home of this faith and the temple of God. Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.”

I should also call your attention to highly relevant comments in the same pope’s allocution Singulari Quadam (note the almost identical name), dated December 9, 1854:

"It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the flood. On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who are affected by ignorance of the true religion, if it is invincible ignorance, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord. Now, then, who could presume in himself an ability to set the boundaries of such ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of peoples, lands, native talents, and so many other factors? Only when we have been released from the bonds of this body and see God just as He is [1Jn 3:2] shall we really understand how close and beautiful a bond joins divine mercy with divine justice. Nevertheless, as charity demands, let us pray continually for the conversion to Christ of all nations everywhere. Let us devote ourselves to the salvation of all men as far as we can, for the hand of the Lord is not shortened [Is 59:1]. The gifts of heavenly grace will assuredly not be denied to those who sincerely want and pray for refreshment by the divine light. These truths need to be fixed deeply in the minds of the faithful so that they cannot be infected with doctrines tending to foster the religious indifferentism which We see spreading widely, with growing strength, and with destructive effect upon souls."

Hope this helps.

172 posted on 08/10/2005 11:19:20 AM PDT by Romulus (Der Inn fließt in den Tiber.)
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