Posted on 07/30/2005 9:06:18 AM PDT by littlepaddle
The Hail Mary is not liturgical. It only occurs in the Liturgical Books as a private devotion prior to public recitation of the Divine Office. "Sancta Dei Genetrix" is the liturgical phrase.
"the only significant place where the phrase "Mater Dei" appears is in the "Hail Mary." In the Marian antiphons, "Sancta Dei Genetrix" is used."
Why the need to use two expressions instead of one? I'm not trying to be arguementative here because I think that the superiority of Greek in theology was established in a previous discussion to which I was not even a part. I feel as if I am going over ground, as an amateur who does not even speak Greek, that is pretty generally accepted among theologians and patrilogists. I'm just interested. Why two expressions and not one? In the original "Hail Mary" (in Orthodox parlance the "Theotokos and Virgin Rejoice"), by Pope St. Cyril of Alexandria, Theotokos was the term used, but our discussion suggests that Dei Genetrix would have been a better translation than Mater Dei.
As Hermann mentioned above, "Mater Dei" is in a non-liturgical prayer. The part of the "Ave Maria" after the Holy Name of Jesus was added by the Catholic Church sometime in the 2nd millenium.
"As Hermann mentioned above, "Mater Dei" is in a non-liturgical prayer. The part of the "Ave Maria" after the Holy Name of Jesus was added by the Catholic Church sometime in the 2nd millenium"
I admit it. I'm confused.
Here's the prayer from the Divine Liturgy in English:
"O Theotokos and Virgin, rejoice, O Mary, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, for thou hast borne the Savior of our souls." And that's the prayer by St. Cyril that caused offense to Nestorius.
Note how similar it is to the "Ave Maria" in English:
"Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death."
The only differences are: 1) the first one is liturgical and not non-liturgical but the second one is non-liturgical, 2) there is some slight difference in the wording.
So if I get you correctly, the Orthodox liturgical prayer went through a transmutation of sorts sometime after A.D. 1054 and became the prayer now more familiar to Westerners as the "Hail Mary". Is that right? Might this have had something to do with the development of the Rosary maybe?
Well, since both prayers are based on verses from Luke's Gospel, it is quite possible that the prayers developed independently of each other.
* Again, you sin by thinking you can judge the interior intention of another. That is a sin you frequently committ.
However, since you seem to object to the point of this article (that the TLM more accurately reflects and expresses the Catholic faith than the NO) which by the way none of your posts address
* Again with the attempt to judge intention. Review what it is I responded to.
You are so ensnared in your judgementalism you can't see the simple facts before you. You ignore what it is I am responding to and you engage in igniting your phantom straw men.
"Well, since both prayers are based on verses from Luke's Gospel, it is quite possible that the prayers developed independently of each other."
Possibly, but I read in a Roman Catholic source, Catholic Encyclopedia maybe, that Pope St. Cyril of Alexandria is considered the author of the "Hail Mary". That to me suggests the prayer came from the East.
So my theory, but I may be wrong, is that the founding friar Dominic of the Order of Preachers took this prayer and used it when putting together his series of meditations we call the Rosary. No doubt there must be more on all of this by Thurston and other scholars who have studied the development of the Rosary.
The association of St. Dominic with the institution of the Rosary is a legend. The meditations on the mysteries were not added to the Rosary for 200 years after his death, while the recitation of the Rosary itself pre-dated his birth. On the 'Hail Mary':
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07110b.htm
In point of fact there is little or no trace of the Hail Mary as an accepted devotional formula before about from certain versicles and responsories occurring in the Little Office or Cursus of the Blessed Virgin which just at that time was coming into favour among the monastic orders. Two Anglo-Saxon manuscripts at the British Museum, one of which may be as old as the year 1030, show that the words "Ave Maria" etc. and "benedicta tu in mulieribus et benedictus fructus ventris tui" occurred in almost every part of the Cursus, and though we cannot be sure that these clauses were at first joined together so as to make one prayer, there is conclusive evidence that this had come to pass only a very little later. (See "The Month", Nov., 1901, pp. 486-8.) The great collections of Mary-legends which began to be formed in the early years of the twelfth century (see Mussafia, "Marien-legenden") show us that this salutation of our Lady was fast becoming widely prevalent as a form of private devotion, though it is not quite certain how far it was customary to include the clause "and blessed is the fruit of thy womb".
"The association of St. Dominic with the institution of the Rosary is a legend. The meditations on the mysteries were not added to the Rosary for 200 years after his death, while the recitation of the Rosary itself pre-dated his birth. On the 'Hail Mary'..."
Very interesting.
Based on what you have just said, I am more inclined than ever towards describing the "Hail Mary" as probably being a Western corruption of the Orthodox prayer in the Divine Liturgy, "O Theotokos and Virgin rejoice".
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