[Diva]

Oh, gosh when you start quoting Justin Martyr what is there to say? Wait! I know, I'll quote Adrian Fortesque ;~):

...he (Justin Martyr),was writing to demonstrate the harmlessness of Christianity, especially the mysterious Christian meetings, which were illegal, about which pagans believed horrible things. In reading his description we must remember that he writes for this purpose, not to supply future archaeologists with a complete picture of liturgical practices. Nevertheless his defence takes the form of an outline of the service which to the liturgist is the most precious document of the first three centuries.

There have been many liturgical practices instituted and then done away with for various reasons over the millenia. Perhaps the Kiss of Peace began to descend into the goofiness us ole curmudgeons complain about and so, was modified at the Council of Trent.

At the very least I think its position needs to be re-thought seriously and I am certainly not the only Catholic who thinks this way. Why, a quick search on the Internet landed me this little gem from America Magazine, (hardly a conservative rag), by Fr. Thomas Reese S.J.:

Likewise, the kiss of peace could be given either during the entrance rite (hello and welcome), after the penitential rite (a sign of reconciliation), prior to the preparation of gifts (first be reconciled to your brother [and sister], and then come and offer your gift) or at the end of the Eucharist (go in peace).

Of all the places to have the kiss of peace, its current position has by far the least symbolic value. In fact, its early opponents were correct in pointing out that it interfered with the flow of action from the Eucharistic prayer into the Communion. Historically, there was a time when the Our Father was used to conclude the prayer of the faithful, and the kiss of peace then followed. There is no reason why these options could not be permitted, and gradually pastors would learn which are most suitable for their communities at different times.

Over time the Roman Mass took shape and became a beautiful offering to God. Seeing what it has become, (and I am speaking of the Novus Ordo since 1978), in so many places is, to say the least, dis-heartening. The loss of the sacred and the enshrinement of mediocrity are the consequences of inventing how we think the early Christians practiced their faith. Perhaps some of these liturgists at Vatican II "felt" it was appropriate to place a Kiss of Peace right after the Consecration. Who are we to argue when feelings become the guide? Maybe we should go back to worshiping in our homes; or dig catacombs, (I shouldn't laugh it may come to this), or; as this one liturgist nun of my acquaintance has suggested, use the bodies of the sick as our Altars!

[Graves]

Well said, "The loss of the sacred and the enshrinement of mediocrity are the consequences of inventing how we think the early Christians practiced their faith."

I understand the major player was this Bugnini guy.

Many centuries earlier, the West went through all of this and that was back in the 8-9th century. The Bugnini type then was Protodeacon Alcuin of York and he had the backing, not of the Pope of Rome, but of the Holy Roman Emperor, Charlemagne. Alcuin reformed the liturgical use at the cathedral at Aachen and Charlemagne saw to it that all the clergy in his empire saluted Aachen

And thus the Tridentine Rite began to take shape.

Amazing isn't it?

Now wouldn't you rather go back to the liturgy that the holy fathers have told us was the original and not to what this or that person thinks was or should have been the original? Why is it that the West is always trying to remake the wheel all the time? Why this constant instability? Why is it the West is so constantly in a state of flux?

[bornacatholic]

My Parish and Pastor are fantastic. The GIRM is adhered to. Our Liturgy is everything it should be and our congregation is peppered, liberally, with converts from Protestantism, Judaism, Atheism, and, just recently, a family of 9 Muslims.

The situation is far superior to what it was when I was raised in the rules and regulations, (relationship with Jesus?) fortress-Catholicism.

[ninenot]

Justin Martyr's descriptions, whether they were "videotape accurate" or not, are irrelevant. The Roman liturgy was NOT what JM described only 100 years later, and certainly not what was canonized after Trent.

Finding antique practices is nice. Precisely how this contributes to "devlopment of the liturgy" is another question entirely, as Pius XII and Ratzinger have made extremely clear.