MOUNTAIN VIEWS: NEW POPE TO TURN BACK THE CLOCK ON REFORMS IN CATHOLIC CHURCH?

Niagara Falls Reporter ^ | July 26, 2005 | John Hanchette

[Diva]

At the risk of irritating both of you I would just like to point out that my parish is a Novus Ordo parish. Lots of us here on FR who post are Novus Ordo but because we refer to ourselves as traditionalists or conservatives or "calcified Catholics," (that's a joke by the way), does not mean we are Tridentine Mass only. Many of us would like to see the Novus Ordo celebrated in a more reverential fashion than what we have witnessed in the more "liberal" or "progressive" parishes. This, however, is not passing judgement on anyone's parish in particular but on what we have experienced in our own lives. Bornacatholic you seem to get upset when we speak of these abuses and assume we are talking about your parish in particular. Having never been to your parish I couldn't say if the Mass is celebrated in a reverential fashion, even with the hand shake, or not. But, I will certainly take your word for it that you have a great parish and a Holy Mass. To do otherwise would be calling you a liar and I would not want you to think that is my intent.

Complaining about a liturgical practice when it is abused or choosing, (when possible), to attend a more consevative parish is not being mean spirited or hard hearted. If I have said anything you find offensive I most sincerely apologize. The quoting of sources reference in one of my posts was meant to be taken lightly, which is why I put a smile or a wink (I forget which), in the post to you bornacatholic. I have great regard for Justin Martyr and for Adrian Fortesque.

One last point I would like to make; however, and that is that there are a number of statements in the Second Vatican Council which have been completely ignored by more progressive liturgists. One in particular which distresses me greatly and which is, I think, very important. The statement has to do with Gregorian Chant and Latin, both of which, according to Vatican II are suppose to have "pride of place" in the Mass. How many churches in this country even offer a Latin Mass, (meaning Novus Ordo Latin Mass), much less Gregorian Chant? Not many, indeed precious few. If you look at the state of musical liturgy (a subject I know something about), it would appear there has been a wholesale suppression of Latin and Gregorian Chant, to the point that the vast majority of Catholics know nothing of the beauty they are missing. Many even believing Latin was banned at Vatican II and Gregorian chant is some sort of antique musical abberation, difficult to master and frankly not worth the effort. To me it's like saying hot dogs and chilli are great so that's all we should eat. Don't get me wrong, I happen to really like hot dogs and chilli but goodness I'd rather have steak, at least occasionally.

[Pelayo]

No need to worry. The Ark of Salvation can't sink.

A wreaked ship does not imply a sunken ship, nevertheless, though we are assured victory over the forces of evil (of which arrogant mediocrity and the desolation of delinquency are most certainly part), that is no excuse not to be vigilant. One of the reasons I like the fortress analogy is in addition to the security it implies for G.K Chesterton's garden inside, it is also, as is our Church, a collection of towers and keeps; united under a unified command in the person of the Supreme Pontiff, but directly defended by the Church militant and the tower captains (Bishops and Priests). A tower can be overrun without the whole edifice succumbing. Thus it is very important that we guard ourselves against laxity and an over indulgent mentality which will lead to infiltration.

As to rigid or lax rule, I leave that to those with authority. I can only control myself.

It is an error of the thinking of this world that humility means the simple acceptance of every opinion and attitude no matter how disgraceful.

So am I to assume then that the celebration of a "lax/evolving" liturgy is no better or worse than celebrating a "rigid/traditionalist" liturgy. Where is the salt in such a sentiment?

Speaking of which you still haven't answered my question about the origin of the motive for a progressive liturgical evolution. Is it God or Man who desires decline from sublime glory to plebeian vapidity. My money is on the entity that is inherently more mailable and inclined to inconstancy.

[bornacatholic]

At the risk of irritating both of you I would just like to point out that my parish is a Novus Ordo parish. Lots of us here on FR who post are Novus Ordo but because we refer to ourselves as traditionalists or conservatives or "calcified Catholics," (that's a joke by the way), does not mean we are Tridentine Mass only.

* I agree, sister. I think any Catholic who does not sever the bonds of worship, doctrine, and authority is "traditionalist" in the sense that one is in union with the living magisterium which decides what is and isn't Tradition and which has authority to retain or discard traditional practices. I have never found you irritating. Quite the opposite.

Many of us would like to see the Novus Ordo celebrated in a more reverential fashion than what we have witnessed in the more "liberal" or "progressive" parishes. This, however, is not passing judgement on anyone's parish in particular but on what we have experienced in our own lives. Bornacatholic you seem to get upset when we speak of these abuses and assume we are talking about your parish in particular.

* If I have given that impression that is a failure I must correct.

Having never been to your parish I couldn't say if the Mass is celebrated in a reverential fashion, even with the hand shake, or not. But, I will certainly take your word for it that you have a great parish and a Holy Mass. To do otherwise would be calling you a liar and I would not want you to think that is my intent.

* I can tell it isn't. I can spot sincere an dinsincere posts.

Complaining about a liturgical practice when it is abused or choosing, (when possible), to attend a more consevative parish is not being mean spirited or hard hearted.

* Amen, sister.

If I have said anything you find offensive I most sincerely apologize. The quoting of sources reference in one of my posts was meant to be taken lightly, which is why I put a smile or a wink (I forget which), in the post to you bornacatholic. I have great regard for Justin Martyr and for Adrian Fortesque. One last point I would like to make; however, and that is that there are a number of statements in the Second Vatican Council which have been completely ignored by more progressive liturgists. One in particular which distresses me greatly and which is, I think, very important. The statement has to do with Gregorian Chant and Latin, both of which, according to Vatican II are suppose to have "pride of place" in the Mass. How many churches in this country even offer a Latin Mass, (meaning Novus Ordo Latin Mass), much less Gregorian Chant? Not many, indeed precious few. If you look at the state of musical liturgy (a subject I know something about), it would appear there has been a wholesale suppression of Latin and Gregorian Chant, to the point that the vast majority of Catholics know nothing of the beauty they are missing. Many even believing Latin was banned at Vatican II and Gregorian chant is some sort of antique musical abberation, difficult to master and frankly not worth the effort. To me it's like saying hot dogs and chilli are great so that's all we should eat. Don't get me wrong, I happen to really like hot dogs and chilli but goodness I'd rather have steak, at least occasionall

* Amen, sister. My heart is with your words.

BTW, I make an outstanding chili

[bornacatholic]

Yours is an intersting post. I will respond when I have time. I am at work right now. Peace, brother