Posted on 07/19/2005 3:49:55 PM PDT by sionnsar
"You are asking the wrong person." About your liturgy? Canons? Constitution? Council in Trullo?
All these are involved in what you said as to the ACC being Tridentine and so forth. So, if I asked the wrong person, maybe you could pass my question(s) along to your priest and he could pass them along to his bishop and maybe we both could get some answers.
Have a great day.
Just because some people jump to the accusation of anti-Catholicism when it isn't warranted, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And if you read Kingsley, or many of the other writers of that same period (though he is the one that jumps out, and the one who was most widely read), you will see that this is true. I find that reading these books in their youth has colored the attitudes of many Englishmen. They haven't THOUGHT about it -- it's just reflexive, like the reaction of many Southern Baptists to the Scarlet Woman.
It's a shame that you were among people who didn't favor theological analysis. I think you would have been happier at our parish. There is serious discussion and give-and-take here, both with our priests and with our fellow Sunday School students. (Our permanent deacons are both converted Baptists, and they have put the Baptists' strengths in Biblical exegesis and powerful preaching into service here in a big way. But Monsignor's homilies are not to be despised either. . . delivered in a classic Irish brogue that hasn't diminished despite his having been in the country 30 years or so . . . )
"...and then there was the place given [or not given] to Mary in their devotional life."
Well, as one Anglican wag once said, "He who is not Marian is most generally Arian."
I wish I knew who said that. It sounds like something G. K. Chesterton might have come up with.
"and then there was the place given to Mary in their devotional life
this being a late and parochial RC obsession you see -- unknown to the Orthodox, not to mention his own cherished Anglican tradition in the thousand years between Gregory the Great and Henry VIII."
Right! Just imagine what he would think seeing us "Orthodoxers" chanting praises to the Most Holy Theotokos at every Liturgy, not to mention the Akathist Hymns we celebrate, the kissing of her Icons in our churches, homes, offices and other workplaces, the visions of our people and the miracles we believe she is responsible for! You Latins are almost protestant with regard to Panagia compared to us! :) Like I said, he wouldn't be happy with us.
We are more catholic than the many liberal RCC parishes that exist where I live. 1) the Priest faces the altar, not the congregation 2) the Body and Blood of Christ are handled by the Priests, not by lay people 3) our missle is the 1928 Book of Common Prayer, which many RCC churches are beginning to turn to because of its inherent traditions.
I got shoved out of the RCC because of the actions of one particular priest; and then snubbed out by fellow priests and friends...mainly because I had the audacity to report the first priest mentioned to the Archbishop, along with 14 other people, who then removed him. The very possibilty of seeking out spiritual guidance was made far more difficult by those who sought to punish me for something that wasn't my crime.
I agree with you that many Anglicans do not know the history of their church any better than they should, but I don't think it is a recent phenomenon. It has been ongoing since the 18th century. I just finished reading a chapter in a book about 18th century English society that gave examples of the very laments you gave. I don't think Henry VIII was any better to England than a Roman king could have been as far as religion goes, but I know enough to understand that Rome does not own the entire story of the church in England.
yours in Christ
I do not mean to sound snarky, so please forgive me if it comes across that way. I said Tridentine because that is what I have been told is the tradition we follow, but again, I am not theologically strong enough to argue the points. I am however part of our church's forum list on another site, and I can transpose your question to them.
Best regards,
Alkhin
"our missle[sic] is the 1928 Book of Common Prayer"
Been there and done that, from my childhood actually.
I'm not here to criticize, only to counsel. A book to look into is Michael Davies, CRANMER'S GODLY ORDER. It's a very good presentation of the traditionalist RC take on the 1549 and 1552 editions of the BCP.
But that's not the full story. For a look further back, read Gerald Eliard, MASTER ALCUIN, LITURGIST.
But where did it really start Alkhin? It started in Jerusalem, didn't it, just as it says in Canon 32 of the Council in Trullo.
The best you can say of the 1928 BCP is that it is a few remnants of the Divine Liturgy of St. James of Jerusalem the Brother of the Lord as taken to Rome by St. Peter, as revamped and restructured (but with a heresy here and there thrown in) by Alcuin of York, as further refined by the Norman Bishop of Sarum in 1066, as redesigned and added to by the heretical Archbishop of Canterbury Thomas Cranmer, as improved upon in 1662 by the Restoration crowd, with its Orthodox paschalion destroyed in 1552 by King George II, as revised in 1789 and then again in 1928.
Would you not rather have the original, or something very close to the original?
"I am however part of our church's forum list on another site, and I can transpose your question to them."
Hey, cool. By all means, do so.
Snarky? Nah. You're doin fine,....for a Texan. I used to attend St. Paul's in San Antonio back in the dark ages when Fr. Joseph was the pastor. http://stpauls-satx.org/
I would offer a WARNING to anyone who reads anything produced by the "British Orthodox Church" to be aware that they are not in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople but are part of the Egyptian Coptic Church. I have much admiration for the perseverance of the Coptic Church in Egypt but the BOC sometimes comes off as THE Orthodox Church of Britain which is not the case. It is a tiny jurisdiction unrecognised by most Orthodox worldwide.
Dr. Kew is really not that bright is he. Pity.
It has been a while since I read up on Alcuin. Thank you for the references!
" I would offer a WARNING"
I'll gladly ditto that but it's irrelevant to the issue, that being the Divine Liturgy of St. James.
Would you not rather have the original, or something very close to the original?
Yes, that would be great... I would love to see something like that come to fruition! I attended our Provincial Synod in 2003, and the subject of establishing a BCP along its original format was brought up as a discussion. I was only able to follow bits and pieces of it, as I was assisting a booth in its sales and I was only there as an observer, rather than a delegate. I may be going out on a limb here, but I think the 1928 version was settled upon in the Affirmation of St. Louis in 1977 because a majority of the members were most familiar with that. As the ACC goes on, I think I might end up hearing more about going to the source, as it were.
Of course, speaking as a child of Vatican II, the 1928 BCP is already rich and wonderful for me.
"Yes, that would be great"
Check out Canon XXXII (32) of the Council in Trullo, aka the Quinisext Council.
Link: http://bible.crosswalk.com/History/AD/EarlyChurchFathers/Post-Nicene/SevenEcumenicalCouncils/view.cgi?file=npnf2-14-136.htm&size=20&start=41460
Then go to The Glastonbury Review.
Link:
http://www.britishorthodox.org/
We weren't discussing the Venerable Bede or Alfred the Great -- just my opinion as to why so many Englishmen today are automatically suspicious of the Catholic church. IMNSHO it was the Anglican reaction to the Oxford Movement in Newman's time (and the political issues associated with that time) that generated most of the reflexive anti-Catholicism in the English church today. (The Irish Question hasn't helped either.)
It's a shame that you ran afoul of a rogue priest. They do exist, in every denomination (I could name several in my former ECUSA diocese). Sounds like the Abp did the right thing though.
P.S. At http://www.britishorthodox.org/, click on the archives to get to the Liturgy of St. James. You will find it is very similar to, like virtually the same as, the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil the Great and the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.
Please forgive my hostile tone. I know exactly what you are talking about concerning the English prejudice. It would be one thing if they knew why, but if all they can come up with is just ingrained bias, rather than real theological knowledge (right or wrong) then it is indeed pointless to keep calling oneself Anglican. I guess I am so eager to tell people about my church, I tend to let it color my reaction to others.
Thank you Graves! Please forgive if I wait until tomorrow...its been a long day here!
Unfortunately, in our diocese we don't have the option of an Anglican parish. The only "high" Anglican parish left is in severe crisis, their long-time rector just left to become chaplain of a convent in Maryland, and the average age of the parishioners is about 75 (I'm really not kidding - when we went there there were oxygen tanks in the back row for the regulars.) Add to that that the bishop is threatening to close them down (he wants their very valuable realty) and that they are over an hour away from our house, you can see how it's unworkable with two teenagers. And the parish may not survive much longer in any event. It's a dreadful situation, and I'm glad to be watching it from the sidelines instead of in the middle of the mess.
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