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To: Dominick
I am not a catholic and reject that it is the faith of my "fathers". My Dad was born a catholic and had the water sprinkled on him for his "christening" for his admittance to heaven. However, despite that water and having the catholic religion; he was still without Jesus. For almost 40 years he wandered this world trying to get by by going to church. I thank God for a Jesus loving mother who cared about me enough to get me in a Bible believing church early enough to make a difference other wise I would have been as lost as he was. I am a good person, but I wont get to heaven because of good works. I will not get to heaven by giving of alms to the poor. I will only get to Heaven by the Grace of my Lord Jesus Christ because of the blood sacrifice that he made for me on Calvary. I refuse to exhange my relationship with Jesus Christ for a religion where you check the blocks of tradition to ensure you get to heaven, your either going there or not.

John 3:16 (King James Version)

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Philippians 4:13 (King James Version)

13I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
43 posted on 06/23/2005 11:35:35 AM PDT by Little_shoe ("For Sailor MEN in Battle fair since fighting days of old have earned the right.to the blue and gold)
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To: Little_shoe
I am not a catholic and reject that it is the faith of my "fathers". My Dad was born a catholic and had the water sprinkled on him for his "christening" for his admittance to heaven

This is not the Catholic Theology, but that is besides the point. One is not baptized and then admitted to Heaven. Like I said learn the Faith that our ancestors, that I referred to as your fathers, knew. I didn't concern myself with your specific father.

If you want to debate Catholics, then you have to learn Catholicism, otherwise you are shooting in the dark. Your comment that we worship Mary and do not pray to God is a very common protestent misrepresentation. Somone gave you misinformation about Catholicism.

I refuse to exhange my relationship with Jesus Christ for a religion where you check the blocks of tradition to ensure you get to heaven, your either going there or not

This is also not the Catholic belief. All our salvation is based on the Mercy of Christ. Either he admits you to heaven or not. God does not work off punchlists.

Specifically, 20% of the number of years that we have known Christ, from 33AD to 397AD there was no Bible. How did one found a "Bible Believing Church" at that time? I imagine you have learned New testement Greek and Aramaic so you can read the Bible for yourself as well. Otherwise, you trust that your translators have correctly changed the words into English so you can comprehend them.

In Catholicism, we use the Bible, and the traditions that were used from 33AD and the first Pentecost, through today. We know what we believe because this is what the apostles taught, and passed unbroken to us today. If you go to the independent Greek Churches you will find a faith similar to the Latin Faith. There will be no Churches from the year 33AD that are similar to protestent Churches of Today.

I take it you did not read or understand John 6:53.
44 posted on 06/23/2005 11:58:20 AM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: Little_shoe
I will only get to Heaven by the Grace of my Lord Jesus Christ because of the blood sacrifice that he made for me on Calvary.

And since you've rejected that blood sacrifice, unless you repent before death, you won't get into Heaven.

54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

45 posted on 06/23/2005 12:54:10 PM PDT by Gerard.P (The lips of liberals drip with honey while their hands drip with blood--Bishop Williamson)
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To: Little_shoe; Dominick
I wont get to heaven because of good works. I will not get to heaven by giving of alms to the poor.

The Bible disagrees. Some selections:

For if I preach the gospel, it is no glory to me: for a necessity lieth upon me. For woe is unto me if I preach not the gospel. For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation is committed to me. And I do all things for the gospel's sake, that I may be made partaker thereof. Know you not that they that run in the race, all run indeed, but one receiveth the prize. So run that you may obtain. And every one that striveth for the mastery refraineth himself from all things. And they indeed that they may receive a corruptible crown: but we an incorruptible one. (1 Cor. 9:16-17, 23-25)

The kingdom of heaven is like to an householder, who went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. ... And when evening was come, the lord of the vineyard saith to his steward: Call the labourers and pay them their hire, beginning from the last even to the first. (Matt. 20:1, 8)

Look to yourselves, that you lose not the things which you have wrought: but that you may receive a full reward. (2 John 1:8)

And he that reapeth receiveth wages and gathereth fruit unto life everlasting: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together. (John 4:36)

But love ye your enemies: do good, and lend, hoping for nothing thereby: and your reward shall be great, and you shall be the sons of the Highest. For he is kind to the unthankful and to the evil. (Luke 6:35)

I have fought a good fight: I have finished my course: I have kept the faith. As to the rest, there is laid up for me a crown of justice which the Lord the just judge will render to me in that day: and not only to me, but to them also that love his coming (2 Tim. 4:7-8)

Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in: Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. (Matt. 25:34-36)

Whatsoever you do, do it from the heart, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that you shall receive of the Lord the reward of inheritance. Serve ye the Lord Christ. (Col. 3:23-24)

God: Who will render to every man according to his works. To them indeed who, according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: (Rom. 2:5-7)

What fruit therefore had you then in those things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of them is death. But now being made free from sin and become servants to God, you have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end life everlasting. For the wages of sin is death. But the grace of God, life everlasting in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom. 6:21-23)

St. Augustine summed up the biblical doctrine on this issue in the following words:

What then is the merit of a man before grace, by what merit does he seize grace, when nothing except grace causes in us our every good merit; and when God crowns our merits, he crowns nothing other than his own gifts? For just as from the beginning we obtained the mercy of faith, not because we were faithful, but that we might be; so in the end, in which will be everlasting life, he will crown us, as it is written, in mercy and compassion (Ps. 102:4). And thus not in vain is it sung to God: His mercy will go before me (Ps. 58:11) and His mercy will follow me (Ps. 22:6). Wherefore also eternal life itself, which will be had at last in the end without an end, is thus rendered to preceding merits; however since the same merits to which it is rendered, it is given; not because it is not given by merits, but because the very merits to which it is given were also themselves given. Where do we find eternal life to be named grace? We have the same magnificent defender of grace, the Apostle Paul: The wages, he says, of sin is death; the grace of God, however, eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom. 6:23).

See, I ask you, he has chosen his words carefully in such shortness: which having been considered diligently, light will shine somewhat on the obscurity of this question. For when he said: The wages of sin is death; who would not consider it most fitting to add this, if he had said: "The wages however of justice, eternal life"? And it is true; since as death is rendered as wages to the merit of sin, so to the merit of righteousness eternal life is rendered as wages. Or if he had not wanted to say: "Of justice", he could have said: "Of faith"; since The just will live by faith (Hab. 2:4). Wherefore 'reward' is used in very many places of the sacred Scriptures; yet nowhere are justice or faith called reward, since the reward is rendered to justice or faith. What reward is to the working man, wages is to the soldier.

But the blessed Apostle against pride, which always tries to creep into the great, that to himself he also says that because of this an angel of Satan had been given, by which he was buffeted, lest he should lift up his head in presumption (2 Cor 12:7), fighting therefore most vigilantly against this pest of pride: The wages, he says, of sin is death. Rightly wages, since it is owed, since it is retributed worthily, because it is rendered to merit. Then, lest justice elevate itself by good merit from man, as the evil merit of men is not doubted to be sin, he does not make the contrary statement: "The wages of justice, eternal life"; but: The grace, he says, of God, eternal life. ... Therefore, O man, if you have received eternal life, certainly it is the wages of justice, but it for you it is a grace, to whom justice itself is also a grace. For it would be rendered as if to a debt, to you, if your justice was from you, to which it is owed. Now of his fulness we have received not only grace, by which now we live justly in toils even to the end, but also grace for this grace (John 1:16), that we may live afterwards in rest without end. Faith believes nothing more saving than this, since the understanding finds nothing more true: and we ought to hear the prophet saying, Unless you believe, you will not understand (Isaiah 7:9, LXX). (Letter 194, To Sixtus of Rome, 5:19-21)

I will only get to Heaven by the Grace of my Lord Jesus Christ because of the blood sacrifice that he made for me on Calvary

Absolutely true, but your concept of grace is lacking. Please see the selection from St. Augustine for a corrective. Not in vain is eternal life spoken of in Holy Scripture as a reward rendered to good works. God makes us just, "Not by the works of justice which we have done, but according to his mercy ... by the laver of regeneration and renovation of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5) so that we might be "his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10), and to these good works which God has ordained for us - they are grace because caused by grace -, we are rendered "grace for grace" (John 1:16) and thus to our good works God renders eternal life, as it is written.

55 posted on 06/23/2005 5:09:44 PM PDT by gbcdoj (For if thou wilt now hold thy peace, the Jews shall be delivered by some other occasion)
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To: Little_shoe

###"but I wont get to heaven because of good works"###

Maybe! But you surely will not get there if you do not do good works.


141 posted on 06/24/2005 6:28:38 AM PDT by franky (Pray for the souls of the faithful departed.)
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To: Little_shoe
I am not a catholic and reject that it is the faith of my "fathers". My Dad was born a catholic and had the water sprinkled on him for his "christening" for his admittance to heaven.

Baptism does not "admit" anyone to Heaven. It isn't a movie ticket. And besides, aren't you Prots the ones that believe baptism is a one-way pass to Heaven?

However, despite that water and having the catholic religion; he was still without Jesus. For almost 40 years he wandered this world trying to get by by going to church.

Did you ever think your father might have had some complicity in being lost? Sounds like you're making a victim out of him. Why automatically blame the Church?

thank God for a Jesus loving mother who cared about me enough to get me in a Bible believing church early enough to make a difference other wise I would have been as lost as he was.

Sounds very Freudian. Sounds like you have issues with your father.

BTW, I'd like to counteract the usual out-of-context, isolated standard Proddie quotes you posted about salvation. Please see below:

From Mark 10:

"And behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"

So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, " 'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,'

'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' "

The young man said to Him, "All these have I kept from my youth. What do I still lack?"

Jesus said to him, "If you desire to be perfect, go, sell your belongings and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

But when the young man heard the word, he went away grieved, for he had many possessions.
Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Assuredly I say to you, that with difficulty a rich man shall enter the kingdom of heaven.
And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

From Luke 19:

And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.

And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.

And when they saw [it], they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.

And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore [him] fourfold.

And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

From James 2:

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,

and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?

So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.

You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.

Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?

For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
164 posted on 06/25/2005 6:22:18 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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