Posted on 06/23/2005 9:06:58 AM PDT by murphE
I admire Mr. Graham's lifelong work but note that he has never ventured into the truly meaningful debates of the day: abortion, homosexuality, and the secularization of society. Indeed, Mr. Graham represents an era reminiscent of the pre-1980s, when Evangelical Christians kept their religious and moral beliefs to themselves. Mr. Graham's failure to engage in the culture wars has definitely clouded the opinion I had of him when I was a child (I'm a cradle Catholic, but my maternal grandpa was Southern Baptist and a fan of Mr. Graham's).
You said it sister.
Give them the smallest peg, or what appears so, not to you, but to them;- the smallest peg, on which to hang a hope of salvation without being in or actually reconciled to the church by the sacrament of penance,- and all the arguments you can address to them to prove the necessity of being in the church in order to be saved, will have no more effect on them than rain on a duck’s back. You may bring them in the church for aesthetic reasons, by the grandeur and pomp of your liturgy, your taste in church decoration, your solemn and soul-entrancing music, even for intellectual reasons, but never as the necessary means of saving their souls. St. Augustine wrote his “Confessions,” but not usually do those converts write the history of their conversion, who were led to the church by the need they felt of getting rid of their sins, and of supernatural grace to assist them to lead an upright spiritual life. ... There can be no more fatal mistake than to soften, liberalize, or latitudinize this terrible dogma, “Out of the church there is no salvation,” or to give a man an oppurtunity to persuade himself that he belongs to the soul of the church, though an alien from the body.
Real simple: There is no Salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church.Oh, b-rother. There is no salvation outside of Jesus, ya nut.
Fr. Feeney never had to recant his position through all of the persecution he endured.
Any idea of "anonymous Christianity" is pure speculation. And ultimately it undermines the teachign of the Church.
There is not one dogmatic statement that indicates that Baptism of Desire or Baptism of Blood conveys the same character as Baptism of Water and Spirit. We hope for it in our weak and imperfect personal faith and understanding but nothing like that is part of revealed doctrine.
Millions and millions do go to Hell is the Catholic teaching. The way is narrow, many are invited and few get in.
Aquinas states two things, That even a just man with grace will fall into mortal sin. And secondly if someone has no access to Christ and still seeks him honestly, that God will send an Angel to minister to him. Whether that happens to our Protestant, Orthodox and Jewish, Muslim and Pagan friends in the time between the last second of life and the first second of death is known only to God, that person and the Spirits involved.
All of the citations used by Fr. Most can be addressed more accurately with an understanding of EENS that is consistent with the more direct statements by the Holy See. Fr. Most neglects to quote the Council of Florence but rather just alludes to it. I suspect he does this because it flies in the face of much of what he writes.
"[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels' (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."
Ignorance and good feelings and intentions are simply not enough and they are not equal to Christ's dying on the Cross, establishing his Church and giving us the Sacraments to enable us to participate in his gift of salvation.
God is the just Judge. Trust in him. We don't have to add to the deposit of Faith in order to make ourselves feel better. As Gerry Matatics said to me one time when referring to his daughter who died in childbirth (he baptized her immediately) "But if I was too late and if I'm graced enough to get to Heaven, if I don't see my daughter there, I'm not going to cross my arms and tell God that 'Hey! Something's wrong up here!"
Ah, those that want to start flame wars are out and about today. You get the prize for being first on this thread.
Clemenza's post was #23, the first flame was at #4. IMO.
Oh, b-rother. There is no salvation outside of Jesus, ya nut.
Ya can't know Jesus outside of his Church, ya nut.
Post number 4 just states Catholic doctrine.
And is not the Church the Body of Christ, according to the express witness of Scripture? "Let them become the body of Christ, if they wish to live by the Spirit of Christ. None lives by the Spirit of Christ but the Body of Christ" (St. Augustine, Tract. in John, XXVI, 14). Christ Himself explains this clearly: "As the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father: and I lay down my life for my sheep. And other sheep I have that are not of this fold: them also I must bring. And they shall hear my voice: And there shall be one fold and one shepherd" (John 10:15-6), as does the Apostle: "Christ also loved the church and delivered himself up for it: That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life:" (Eph. 5:26-7).
I think churches should get involved with the Billy Graham Crusade.
No salvation outside Jesus Christ you mean.
How do you think that you are saved through Jesus Christ?
Cardinal Egan doesn't have time to be concerned about the man who has preached the Gospel before more people than any man in the history of mankind (including JPII).
He has to "prepare" for the Year of the Eucharist, which is half over.
Why?
How many false churches and how many true Churches do you think should get involved with the crusade?
I severely disagree with his decision. My local church would love to have gotten involved with the crusade. I'm going on my own to hand out flyers.
That's not the point. Billy Graham is has led many to Jesus and why not get involved? I respect the man and his dedication to the gospel of Jesus.
I'm curious as to how you believe someone is saved through Jesus Christ when so many disagree on how he is the savior, what he actually did in the Scriptures, what he meant when he said the things he said and how one sifts through the various contradictory positions in order to know what is necessary to believe in order to be saved.
Oh but it is. Our Lord was very specific.
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