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To: bornacatholic
One of your links connects one with Traditio, a site run by a fake priest.

This is from the other link you provided. This gentleman, who wrote an online book about the Resurrection of the Roman Catholic Church (sic) apparently thinks the Popes since Pius XII (who died in 1958) are unreliable.


Be that as it may, I included these links simply as short, additional explanations of the film. And, I stated that this was the purpose of the links. I did not provide the links to sing the praises of their authors.


How are these links, which attack the Church and the Living Magisterium established by Jesus and promised by Him never to fail, useful to Christians?

Please see above. I had to go digging to find the statement you quoted in the book penned by this man. So, you must have had to do the same. I did not link to the statement you quoted. I did link, however, to a summary of the movie for the purposes outlined above.

Furthermore, I prefaced my links with statements that the movie goes to extremes at times to make its points, and I noted that it has both Anti-VII and sedevacantist overtones. I would think that the fact that I mentioned these aspects at the outset would make it clear that I find them regrettable and unecessary.

I can’t wait to see the flaming begin once someone actually watches the movie.
13 posted on 06/04/2005 10:59:24 AM PDT by GOPmember
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To: GOPmember
Since the link to the film appears to be currently either down or overloaded, Here's another.

I think the codec needed to view the film is Divx MPEG4, though I'm not 100% on that.
14 posted on 06/04/2005 11:13:15 AM PDT by GOPmember
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To: GOPmember
Be that as it may, I included these links simply as short, additional explanations of the film.

How about a review written by one in Union with the Pope?

19 posted on 06/04/2005 11:30:10 AM PDT by bornacatholic (It must be tough being a traditionalist what with all the correcting of HM Church it demands)
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To: GOPmember
No need to look. I just found a review by one, formerly sspx'er, now in Union with the Pope.

What We Have Lost" Is What We Must Recover Our Faith In Christ's Mystical Body.

By Peter Vere

"The Word of God who brought into existence men's souls and bodies, became man in Judea -- our Savior Jesus Christ. Perfectly righteous and filled with divine wisdom, He lovingly taught us what the God of all is like, and what is the end of virtue, befitting the souls of men with a view to social order and dignity. By His own suffering He put a stop to sins in their very beginning. He taught us to relieve sorrow, to be generous, to promote charity, to put away vainglory, to abstain from taking revenge, to despise death -- not when inflicted for wrongdoing, but in patient endurance of the wrongdoing of others. He taught us to obey the law laid down by Himself, to honor the king, to worship the immortal God, and Him only, to believe our souls to be immortal, to look forward to judgement after death, to expect the reward of the toils of virtue to be given by God after the resurrection of those who have lived good lives. All this He taught us plainly." [Appolonius the Apologist, quoted from Butler's Lives of the Saints, revised by Thurston and Attwater (Westminster, MD, 1956), vol. II, p. 120.]

Not too long ago, my attention was drawn to an area of a Traditionalist web-page claiming to list essential works every Traditionalist should read in order to preserve their Catholic faith during the modern crisis within the Church. Of the thirty or so works listed, I was surprised to find fewer than five printed before the Second Vatican Council -- and within these five works, fewer still were written by Saints or Roman Pontiffs. Assuming the good intentions of the webmaster, I was nevertheless saddened that so much space was devoted to controversy, and so little devoted to pursuing the Christian piety of the Saints and the teaching of the Magesterium. And thus I find myself reflecting upon the following question, namely what is this Tradition I seek to preserve and pass down to my children as a Catholic? Is it a Tradition of integrist paranoia which sifts numerous Masonic conspiracies and modernist cabals like the sands of the sea, or is it a Tradition of a united redemptive vision cntered around Our Lord in the Holy Eucharist and founded upon the solidity of the rock of St. Peter?

With the recent controversy within Traditionalist circles over the video "What We Have Lost," I find myself wondering whether as a movement we have bothered to pause and reflect upon this very question. While we may compare the Tridentine liturgy to the Novus Ordo and cite various liturgical traditions which have been lost in the post-conciliar liturgical reform, there is nevertheless a sense that the Traditionalist movement has lost something of its own in periodically sacrificing popular piety for polemic. At the root of this malaise infecting the movement is the irony of having become so painfully focused upon Judas Iscariot's betrayal, that they have lost sight of He whom Judas betrayed -- Jesus Christ. Since the pontificate of Pope Pius XII, what we have lost as Traditional Catholics, is our trust in the Blessed Mother and St. John the Apostle comforting our Lord at the foot of the cross. Even more than the liturgy, what we have lost as Traditional Catholics is a sense of popular piety and devotion towards the Mystical Body of Christ which now finds itself crucified by cultural Judas Iscariots.

As a Traditional Catholic, I am not called to place my faith in Judas Iscariot's ability to conspire, betray and destroy the Church. Rather, Christ calls us through the Gospels to place our faith in His ability to preserve the Church against those who, inspired by the gates of hell, conspire to destroy her. For although the Mystical Body of Christ may at times appear to be undergoing a crucifixion, we have faith that these moments of darkness will soon pass and, like Our Lord's physical body, His Mystical Body will resurrect itself by the power of the Holy Ghost. It is this faith in Christ's promise to preserves the Church which the Traditionalist Movement has lost, and it is this hope firmly rooted in popular piety which we must recover. For as Pope Pius XII reminds us, "the [Church's] greatest glory and exaltation are born only of sufferings, and hence...we should rejoice we partake of the sufferings of Christ, that when His glory shall be revealed we may also be glad with exceeding joy." [Mystici Corporis, par. 2]

It is in suffering alongside our Blessed Mother at the foot of the cross that we partake in the joy of her Divine Son's resurrection, uncovering "the riches hidden in a Church, which Christ hath purchased with His own blood, and whose members glory in a thorn-crowned Head." [Mystici Corporis, par. 2] For the blood which flows from the head of Christ is redemptive, bringing about the salvation of our soul. And while Church Militant may seem more like Church Suffering at the moment, in each and every thorn which pierces the Master's head we find a foretaste of Church Triumphant. Therefore, as Traditional Catholics we must persevere against the despairing call of integrism which, horrified at the sight of a crucified Church, calls us to abandon Christ's Mystical Body. Furthermore, we must not sever our ties St. Peter and his successors, for in severing our ties with the visible head of Christ's Mystical Body we sever our ties with the very thorn-crowned Head which brings about the glory of salvation. While the Holy Father may sometimes appear asleep on the throne of St. Peter, as Traditional Catholics we joyfully submit to him, faithful to Our Lord's bold reminder in Sacred Scripture that "Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren." [St. Luke 22: 31-32]

In quoting the Douay-Rheims translation which distinguishes between the plural "you" and the singular "thou," we note as Catholic Traditionalists that Satan has demanded of our Lord that he should sift all the apostles ("you" -- plural) as wheat, and by extension all the Christian faithful, but Our Lord has prayed for Simon Peter ("thou" -- singular) that SIMON PETER's faith may fail not -- promising Simon Peter that he will overcome any moments of temporary weakness and confirm the rest of the Church in the Catholic faith. What is even more notable in this passage is that Our Lord addresses the chief apostle not by his papal name "Peter," but by his birth name "Simon." Thus as Catholic Traditionalists we remain faithful to Our Lord's promise that He will preserve not only the faith of the office of St. Peter, but the faith of Simon the office holder.

Nevertheless, like in Christ's time when those Pharisees who sought tradition simply for tradition's sake ridiculed our crucified Lord, crying out "He saved others, now let him save himself," the present day apostles of integrism will accuse those of us who remain faithful to the ecclesiological Tradition of the Church of "selling out the Traditionalist movement" in remaining faithful to the Christ's promise to Simon-Peter. Yet in uniting ourselves as traditional Catholics to the crucified Christ firmly rooted in the rock of St. Peter's lawful successor, our "motive is altogether divine: not only the will of the Eternal Father and the earnest wish of our Savior, but the interior inspiration and impulse of the Holy Ghost in our minds and hearts." [Mystici Corporis, par. 75] Similarly, if upholding this promise of Our Lord means as Traditional Catholics we must share a Church with those who conspire against her, or else those who are weaker in faith and morals; we will gladly do so, inspired by the following reminder of Pope Pius XII that "Christ did not wish to exclude sinners from His Church; hence if some members of the Church are spiritually ill, that is no reason why we should lessen our love for the Church, but rather a reason why should increase our devotion to her members." [Mystici Corporis, par. 72]

This passage, so carefully crafted by His Holiness, express the inspired teachings of the Holy Ghost to which we cling as Traditional Catholics. They are part of the authentic Tradition preached by our Lord in the Gospels when He calls upon us to pray for our persecutors, so that they may be blinded by the light of Christ; for just as every Saul of Tarsus is a potential St. Paul, so too is every modernist seduced by worldly philosophies a potential St. Thomas Beckett inspired by Christ's passion. For it is in patiently undergoing crucifixion with Christ's Mystical Body and devoting ourselves as Catholic Traditionalists to the spiritual welfare of the modern-day prostitutes, tax-collectors and persecutors in our midst that the Church is showered with "heavenly gifts and extraordinary graces through which, with inexhaustible fecundity, she generates hosts of martyrs, virgins and confessors." [Mystici Corporis, art. 72]

What we have lost as Traditionalists, we must recover -- our faith in Holy Mother Church and our trust in Christ's promise to preserve His Mystical Body against the gates of hell. What we have lost in our battle to preserve Tradition is Charity towards God and neighbor -- the principle theological virtue according to the Angelic Doctor St. Thomas Aquinas -- and this we must recover if we are lead the restoration of the Church, for Our Lord teaches us in the Gospels that to love one's God and to love one's neighbor are the two commandments upon which the rest of our Catholic Tradition is founded. What we have lost in becoming embittered by the present worldly ideologues persecuting the Church is an earnest desire to see our enemies converted, and this we must recover if we wish to adhere to redemptive Tradition of Christ Crucified re-enacted in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. What we have lost as Traditionalists in isolating ourselves into catacombic ghettos is a sense of communion with the rest of Holy Mother Church, and we must recover our Traditional ecclesiological filial loyalty to Rome if we are to be the spiritual leaven which causes the Church rise out its present malaise.

As one of the first Traditional Catholic cyber-media barons to establish an Internet fiefdom through an email discussion list, a cyber-novel and a webpage, it requires little effort on my part to produce a polemical electronic rant celebrating the most egregious excesses of liturgical abuse within the Novus Ordo. Often I have found myself pointing the finger at the Novus Ordo, begging the question "what have we lost?" And yet if Christ were walking amongst us today, I am not certain I could account for all the talents which Christ has entrusted to Traditional Catholics -- either as an individuals within the movement, or to the movement as a whole. However, it is not the talents of those persecuting the Church or abusing the liturgy for which Christ will call us to account on Judgement Day, but rather He will demand from us an account of those talents with which He blessed us as Traditional Catholics in communion with Pope John Paul II and his lawful successors.

Therefore, let those flirting with integrism pose of the Novus Ordo the rhetorical question "what have we lost?" in which we can only discern an effort to justify a schismatic mentality -- for those who are without the Rock of St. Peter will always be the first to cast sins upon the Church; as Traditional Catholics in communion with the See of St. Peter, our first duty in looking towards the Sacred Tradition passed down by our forefathers is to ask this question of ourselves, and only then may we ask "what can we as Traditional Catholics recover for the Church Christ founded on St. Peter?" And let us pose these questions and carry out their response in a spirit of Christian Charity towards our neighbors, our ecclesiastical superiors, and our persecutors -- always remembering that "if at times there appears in the Church something that points to the weakness of our human nature, put it down not to the juridical constitution, but rather to that regrettable inclination to evil found in everyone, which its divine Founder permits even at times in the most exalted members of His Mystical Body, for the purpose of testing the virtue of flocks and Shepherds, and that all may increase the merit of their Christian faith." [Mystici Corporis, art. 72]

For to recover a sense of Christian Charity towards others cannot but strengthen the Traditionalist cause within the Church. It is a sad commentary upon the movement that we too often dismiss Charity as a syrupy post-conciliar innovation perpetuated solely by charismatics and social justice activists within the Church. And yet the call to Christian Charity is firmly rooted in our Catholic Tradition, for as Pope Pius XII reminds us, "Charity, then, more than any other virtue binds us closely to Christ. On fire with this flame from heaven how many children of the Church have rejoiced to suffer insults for Him, and to face and overcome the hardest trials, though it cost their lives and the shedding of their blood." If we are truly what we claim to be -- Catholics who uphold and practice the Traditional teachings of the Church -- we must heed this call from the Magisterial Tradition of the Church to show charity to those who persecute us, whether it be our neighbor, our ecclesiastical superior, or a Saul of Tarsus seeking to destroy the Church. Again, the salvation of souls is too precious a cause for the Traditionalist Movement to become embittered by persecution, polemic, betrayal and past wrongs.

What we have lost is what we must recover -- the supernatural virtue of Charity. If one surveys the great expanse of the Church's history, one notes that even in the best of times Our Lord calls each individual to save his soul through Christ. In the most troubled of times, however, Our Lord calls us not only to save our own soul through Christ, but that of our neighbor as well. As Traditional Catholics it is imperative that we heed the teachings of our saints like Francis of Assisi who is alleged to have commanded his followers to "go into the world and preach the Gospel of Christ, using words only when necessary." As Catholic Traditionalists, our Lord has not called us to save the Church -- neither privately as individuals nor corporately as a movement within the Church -- for only Christ is capable of such an awesome feat; rather, Our Lord has called us each and every Catholic Traditionalist to be a saint, to exercise heroic virtue in conforming our lives to the Sacred Deposit of Holy Tradition safeguarded in the Petrine Primacy, and to be an example which leads others to salvation in Christ.

What we have lost in the Traditional Catholic Movement is the call to personal sanctity in our daily lives. What we must recover as Catholic Traditionalists, if we are to be effective in fostering Tradition among the rest of the Church while converting those outside the Church, is the zeal of saints for the salvation of souls and joyful conformity to the Will of Christ. In the end, what we must recover as Catholic Traditionalists is the desire to be great saints. And while such a feat may seem incredible, impossible, presumptuous and a host of other adjectives which serve simply as excuses in order to justify our fallen nature and weakness of will; to become a saint is not only possible in Christ, but probable if as Catholic Traditionalists we show but a mustard seed of faith in the redemptive sacrifice of His crucifixion as well as an iota of joyful submission to the salvific juggernaut of His Mystical Body the Church.

(copyright 2000, Peter John Vere)

20 posted on 06/04/2005 11:39:15 AM PDT by bornacatholic (It must be tough being a traditionalist what with all the correcting of HM Church it demands)
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To: GOPmember
I went to the "In the Spirit of Chartres" Committee web page and clicked on the restoration conferences. I looked at the speakers and their topics. More endless rehashing of the Since-the-death-of-Pius XII-everything-has-gone-to-hell thesis.

Those folks appear joyful in their misery. It is almost as if they dig for negative news as a way to justify their dissension, destruction and disunifying ways.

I want no part of those folks, their publications, productions, tapes, audiences etc. I am a happy Christian in Union with the Holy Father and these folks of the ISOCC outfit, if they were men of integrity, would cease proclaiming the Creed because they clearly do not believe in the ONE spoken in the Creed because that ONENESS in the Creed is UNITY, the Unity of Worship, Doctrine and Authority and they, clearly reject that.

BTW, all the ancient Catechisms teach that about the Creed and these folks reject it so of what value are their personal opinions vs. the Living Magisterium about which ....

Jesus: " He who hears you, hears me"

24 posted on 06/04/2005 11:59:23 AM PDT by bornacatholic (It must be tough being a traditionalist what with all the correcting of HM Church it demands)
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