Posted on 05/30/2005 5:02:02 PM PDT by sionnsar
I think there's general recognition of that fact. Two groups, the REC and APA, are merging. The other larger groups are talking, too.
"Around here, the individual parishes are sort of wandering in the wilderness wondering what to do. It's tough."
Do you have any references? I'd like to pass them on and see if we can't get the parishes connected somewhere! (I have my preferences, of course, but wandering disconnected is not good!)
le meas,
Bill
Uhm... Because the history of the Old Covenant (Jewish priests offering sacrifice) and the history of the New Covenant (priests offering sacrifice) and the theology of both books, demand it.
4,000 plus years. Truth cannot contradict itself. The Church is visible--not invisible. There is one Lord, one Faith, one baptism. The Faith must have authentic living interpresters.
"So why is there need for any intercessory priesthood between God and His children?"
One of the greatest of the Fathers, +John Chrysostomos wrote:
"He who honors the priest, will honor God also; and he who has learned to despise the priest, will in process of time insult God. 'He who receives you,' He says, 'receives Me' (Matt. 10:40). 'Hold your priests in honor' (Ecclus. 7:31), He says. For when a man is piously disposed towards the priest, he is much more so towards God. And even if the priest is wicked, God seeing that you respect him, though unworthy of honor, through reverence to Him, will Himself reward you. For if 'he who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward' (Matt. 10:41), then he who honors and submits and gives way to the priest will certainly be rewarded. Do you know what the priest is? He is an angel of the Lord. If you despise him, you despise not him, but God who ordained him.
But how does it appear, you ask, that he is ordained of God? If God works nothing through his means, you have neither laver, nor are a partaker of the Mysteries, nor of the benefits of blessings; you are therefore not a Christian. What then, you say, does God ordain all, even the unworthy? God indeed does not ordain all, but He works through all, though they be themselves unworthy, so the people may be saved. For if He spoke, for the sake of the people, by an ass, and by Balaam, a most wicked man (Num. 22,23,31), much more will He speak by the mouth of the priest. What indeed will not God do or say for our salvation? By whom does He not act? For if He wrought through Judas and those others who 'prophesied' ... will He not much more work through the priests?
If we may not judge our brother, much less our teacher, let each attend to his own department. For if he teaches perverted doctrine, though he be an angel, do not obey him; but if he teaches the truth, take heed not to his life, but to his words. You are a sheep, do not be curious concerning the shepherd, lest you have to give account of your accusations against him. It is not he who speaks to you. It is Christ who thus admonishes you. But you say, 'He ought to be better than I.' Why? 'Because he is a priest'. If he is not better, ought you therefore to destroy yourself? These are the words of arrogance. Hear what Christ says, 'Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment' (Matt. 12:36).
Let us reverence that day on which he enlightened us. He who has a father, whatever faults he has, conceals them all. For it is said, 'Do not glory in the dishonor of your father, for your father's dishonor is no glory to you. And if his understanding fails, have patience with him' (Ecclus. 3:10-12). And if this is said of our natural fathers, much more of our spiritual fathers. Approach him with pious respect. Do not say he is wicked. What of that? Does one who is wicked of himself bestow great benefits on you? By no means. Everything works according to your faith. The priest performs a symbol. The Offering is the same, whether a common man, or Paul or Peter offer it. It is the same which Christ gave to His disciples, and which the priests now minister. This is in no way inferior to that, because it is not men who sanctify even this, but the Same who sanctified the one also sanctifies the other. So the world is of one faith. The Spirit immediately fell upon Cornelius, because he had fulfilled his part, and contributed his faith." Homily II on II Timothy I
St. John is a "later" source, so perhaps this from the First Epistle Of Clement To The Corinthians, Chap. XLI will explain why we believe in the necessity of a priesthood and, even more importantly the Apostolic Succession and the ancient Christian nature of this belief:
"The apostles have preached the Gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ has done so from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labors], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, "I will appoint their bishops in righteousness, and their deacons in faith."
I am both happy and sad for them. On the one hand, they are together worshipping the Living God. On the other, they have lost the sacramental unity with Christ by cleaving to a separatist church.
I cannot help but pick up a sense of desperation in their tone and actions which I can well appreciate. It also seems to have perhaps the least whiff of despair, which is not so commendable.
In Christ,
Deacon Paul+
:kiss: bye-bye!
The Golden Mouth indeed!
"Peter wrote: "you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
10 for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY." (I Peter 2:9-10)"
So, I ask again, in light of the above why is there any need for intercessory priests? Paul wrote: "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time." I Timothy 2:5-6 so to interpose any other is to diminish His role. I would take the words of Peter and Paul over the words of John Chrysostom. They had a temporally closer relationship with the Messiah. I neither honor the priest nor am I despising him. I AM HIM according to Peter.
"Uhm... Because the history of the Old Covenant (Jewish priests offering sacrifice) and the history of the New Covenant (priests offering sacrifice) and the theology of both books, demand it."
Ah, but therein lies the rub. The New Covenant in His blood obviates the need for further priestly sacrifices. He, as our High Priest forever, offered Himself once, for all, for all time, for all sins as the only acceptable sacrifice which could wash away sins. It is written that the blood of bulls and goats cannot wash away sin, but the blood of the Messiah can. Can any priest, bishop, archbishop, pope, or high priest offer a more worthy sacrifice? Then why should they even try? Hebrews 10 records: "For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins." The OT sacrificial system did not take away sins. It only covered them. Jesus was made sin for us that we might be made righteous in the sight of God. So, why do we need intercessory priests to speak to God for us? We are authorized to approach Him with joy and thanksgiving covered by the blood of Jesus.
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. Hebrews 13:17
I doubt +John Chrysostomos believed or ever wrote that a priest is the sin qua non of our theosis or that they are "necessary intercessors". The Church always and everywhere has believed that The Church, the Body of Christ on Earth, is defined as the Bishop surrounded by his priests and the laos tou Theou, the people of God under the Lordship of Christ. Without the Bishop, the presbyters and the people, there simply is no Church. But if even one diocese were to survive, then the fullness of The Church exists. By always and everywhere I mean from the 1st century on and by those who knew Christ and were either directly his disciples or were their students. You are of course free to believe what you will, but your ideas are very modern, no more than a few hundred years old and do not reflect The Faith as taught by The Church. The Church does not Teach, nor has it ever, that Peter means that we are all priests in the sense of sacramental priests, but as Christians we are the building stones of the New Temple where Christ is the High Priest. As a Royal Priesthood, we share in the priesthood of Christ in a ministry of evangelization by living out The Faith in our daily lives.
That's just about the best analogy I seen, yet. Good job.
Thank you.
Blessings -- B A
But He did not will it so. He sent out Apostles one of whom said we are all priests. How do you overcome the plain text of the letter Peter wrote? One who castigated the priests of His day would not inflict such a system on the bride He has chosen.
Can you not read? I am claiming to be a member of the royal priesthood. I thought that was abundantly clear.
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