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To: jec1ny

Re: “I am sure that had Cardinal Rampolla really been a Mason, he would have been found out and excommunicated by St. Pius X - but he survived the terror of the Sodalitium Pianum years.”

Well now! This tells me a great deal about what the author thinks of SAINT Pius X. Perhaps I am mistaken, maybe it is all sarcasm.

As a former Episcopalian I would like to see the Orthodox Anglican believers swim the Tiber and a mass immigration seems wonderful, but I urge caution. Many of these “conservative” Anglicans are pro abortion (not all but many are), pro birth control (most in fact fit this), pro women priest (you would think they would learn) and a host of other issues from the dogma of Transubstantiation to the Immaculate birth of Mary.

They will need a good course in the Catholic Doctrine; I fear there is no will for that. It is too hard and many will reject the lessons learned. Anglicans have had centuries of cafeteria style doctrine. There is danger here. I am not saying don’t bring them in but I am sounding a warning to too much feel goodism without sound instruction. It wouldn’t do Cradle Catholics no harm to relearn the ancient teachings again either.


25 posted on 05/26/2005 10:17:15 AM PDT by Mark in the Old South (Sister Lucia of Fatima pray for us)
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To: Mark in the Old South

"As a former Episcopalian I would like to see the Orthodox Anglican believers swim the Tiber and a mass immigration seems wonderful, but I urge caution. Many of these “conservative” Anglicans are pro abortion (not all but many are), pro birth control (most in fact fit this), pro women priest (you would think they would learn) and a host of other issues from the dogma of Transubstantiation to the Immaculate birth of Mary.

They will need a good course in the Catholic Doctrine; I fear there is no will for that. It is too hard and many will reject the lessons learned. Anglicans have had centuries of cafeteria style doctrine. There is danger here. I am not saying don’t bring them in but I am sounding a warning to too much feel goodism without sound instruction. It wouldn’t do Cradle Catholics no harm to relearn the ancient teachings again either."

With regards your concerns over converts who do not subscribe to the teachings of the church across the board, I have always been fond of the oath that used to be required of converts before Vatican II. The formula for the reception of converts was quite detailed and left no wiggle room. I am posting it below.

I, N. N.,... years old, (born outside the Catholic Church,) have held and believed errors contrary to her teaching. Now enlightened by divine grace, I kneel before you (if this is the case) Reverend Father N.N., having before my eyes and touching with my hands the Holy Gospels; and with a firm faith I believe and profess each and all the articles that are contained in the Apostles’ Creed, that is:
I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day he arose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Ghost, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of the saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.

I admit and embrace most firmly the apostolic and ecclesiastical traditions and all the other constitutions and prescriptions of the Church.

I admit the sacred Scriptures according to the sense which has been held and is still held by Holy Mother Church, whose duty it is to judge the true sense and interpretation of the Sacred Scriptures, and I shall never accept or interpret them except according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers.

I profess that the Sacraments of the New Law are, truly and precisely, seven in number, instituted for the salvation of mankind, though all are not necessary for each individual: Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Holy Orders, and Matrimony. I profess that all confer grace and that of these Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders cannot be repeated without sacrilege.

I also accept and admit the Ritual of the Catholic Church in the solemn administration of all the above mentioned Sacraments.

I accept and hold, in each and every part, all that has been defined and declared by the Sacred Council of Trent concerning Original Sin and Justification. I profess that in the Mass is offered to God a true, real and propitiatory sacrifice for the living and the dead; that in the Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist is really, truly, and substantially the Body and Blood together with the Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and that there takes place what the Church calls transubstantiation, that is, the change of all the substance of the bread into the Body and all the substance of the wine into the Blood. I confess also that in receiving under either of these species one receives Jesus Christ, whole and entire.

I firmly hold that Purgatory exists and that the souls detained there can be helped by the prayers of the faithful. Likewise I hold that the saints, who reign with Jesus Christ, should be venerated and invoked, that they offer prayers to God for us, and that their relics are to be venerated.

I profess firmly that the images of Jesus Christ and of the Mother of God, ever Virgin, as well as of all the saints, should be given due honor and veneration. I also affirm that Jesus Christ left to the Church the faculty to grant indulgences and that their use is most salutary to the Christian people. I recognize the Holy, Roman, Catholic and Apostolic Church as the mother and teacher of all the Churches and I promise and swear true obedience to the Roman Pontiff, successor of St. Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and Vicar of Jesus Christ.

Besides I accept, without hesitation, and profess all that has been handed down, defined, and declared by the Sacred Canons and by the General Councils, especially by the Sacred Council of Trent and by the (First) Vatican General Council, and in a special manner concerning the primacy and infallibility of the Roman Pontiff. At the same time I condemn and reprove all that the Church has condemned and reproved. This same Catholic faith, outside of which nobody can be saved, which I now freely profess and to which I truly adhere, the same I promise and swear to maintain and profess, with the help of God, entire, inviolate, and with firm constancy until the last breath of life; and I shall strive, as far as possible, that this same faith shall be held, taught, and publicly professed by all those who depend on me and by those of whom I shall have charge. So help me God and these Holy Gospels.

While seated the priest says Psalm 129.

De profundis clamavi ad te Domine: * Domine exaudi vocem mean.
Fiant aures tuae intendentes, * in vocem deprecationis mae.
Si iniquitates observaveris, Domine:* Domine quis sustinebit?
Quia apud te propitiatio est: * et propter legem tuam sustinui te, Domine.

Sustinuit anima mea in verbo ejus: * speravit anima mea in Domine.
A custodia matutina usque ad noctem: * speret Israel in Domino.
Et ipse redimet Israel, * ex omnibus iniquitatibus ejus.
Gloria Patri, etc.

The priest then stands and says:

KYRIE, eleison.
R. Christe, eleison.
V. Kyrie, eleison. Pater noster (secreto).
V. Et ne nos inducas in tentationem.
R. Sed libera nos a malo.
V. Salvum fac servum tuum.
R. Deus meus, sperantem in te.
V. Domine, exaudi orationem meam.
R. Et clamor meus ad te veniat.
V. Dominus vobiscum.
R. Et cum spiritu tuo.

Oremus

Deus, cui propium est misereri semper et parcere: suscipe deprecationem nostram, ut hunc famulum tuum, quem excommunicationis catena constringit, miseratio tuae pietatis clementer absolvat. Per Christum Dominum nostrum.
R. Amen.

The PRIEST then sits down and turning towards the kneeling convert, absolves him from his (violation[s]) heresy, saying:
Latin English
AUCTORITATE apsotolica, qua fungor in hac parte, absolvo te a vinculo excommunicationis quam * (forsan) incurristi, et restituo te sacrosanctis Ecclesiae Sacramentis, communioni et unitati fidelium in nomine Patris et Filii, + et Spiritus Sancti. Amen. By the Apostolic authority, which I exercise here, I absolve thee from the bond of excommunication which (perchance) * thou hast incurred; and I restore thee to the holy Sacraments of the Church, to the communion and unity of the faithful, in the name of the Father, and of the Son +, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.


Act of Perfect Contrition
O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins, known and unknown, not only because I dread the loss of heaven and dread the pains of hell, and not only because Thou art my Creator, my Redeemer and my Sanctifier, but most of all because my sins have offended Thee, my God, Who art all good in Thyself and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to confess my sins, to do penance and to amend my life. Amen.


27 posted on 05/26/2005 10:29:11 AM PDT by jec1ny
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To: Mark in the Old South
Many of these “conservative” Anglicans are pro abortion (not all but many are), pro birth control (most in fact fit this), pro women priest (you would think they would learn) and a host of other issues from the dogma of Transubstantiation to the Immaculate birth of Mary.

It would appear you are totally oblivious to what the Anglo-Catholic movement really is in the Anglican Communion (and outside it). Most Anglo-Catholics are "more Catholic than the Pope", and certainly are not for any of the thigns you mention above.

There are some Evangelicals Anglicans who support some of those mistakes, but they aren't interested in swimming the Tiber.

30 posted on 05/26/2005 12:06:01 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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