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Religious Leaders Agree on Role of Mary
Associated Press (via The Guardian) ^ | 5/17/05 | Gene Johnson

Posted on 05/17/2005 6:16:45 AM PDT by marshmallow

SEATTLE (AP) - A group of Roman Catholic and Anglican leaders studying the role of Mary, the mother of Jesus, said Monday that after years of talks they have agreed that Catholic teachings on the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary into heaven are consistent with Anglican interpretations of the Bible.

The two sides issued a joint document, ``Mary: Grace and Hope in Christ,'' which will now be examined by the Vatican and the Anglican Communion.

If the terms of the new accord are eventually accepted by top church officials - by no means a certainty - it would overcome one of the major doctrinal disagreements dividing the world's 77 million Anglicans and more than 1 billion Roman Catholics.

Historically, the Anglican Communion has opposed the papal teachings because there is no direct account of them in the Bible.

Immaculate Conception refers to the mandatory Catholic dogma, pronounced in 1854, that Mary was born free of ``original sin.'' The Assumption refers to the belief required since 1950 that Mary was directly received, body and soul, into heaven at the end of her life. Anglicans have neither teaching.

Both Catholicism and Anglicanism officially agree, however, on the virginal conception, meaning that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born.

Anglican Archbishop Peter Carnley of Perth, Australia, co-chairman of the Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission, said the Catholic dogmas concerning Mary are ``consonant'' with biblical teachings about hope and grace.

The remaining question between the faiths is the authority on which those dogmas are based, he said - a question to be tackled in future discussions.

``For Anglicans, that old complaint that these dogmas were not provable by scripture will disappear,'' Carnley said during a news conference with Seattle's Catholic Archbishop, Alexander Brunett.

The commission spent five years developing the 81-page booklet, in a process sponsored by the Anglican Consultative Council and the Vatican's Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity.

The document's release was also significant because it follows tensions between Catholicism and Anglicanism over actions by the Episcopal Church, the Anglicans' U.S. branch.

Presiding Episcopal Bishop Frank Griswold, who for a time chaired the commission studying Mary, resigned from the panel after he oversaw the consecration of gay Bishop V. Gene Robinson in New Hampshire. As recently as last month, the Vatican said Robinson's consecration and same-sex blessings by Canadian Anglicans ``created new obstacles'' for relations between the churches.

Though Griswold did not attend the news conference, he was in town Monday to have lunch and attend vespers with Brunett and Carnley.

Bob Chapman, a reporter for the independent Episcopal weekly The Living Church, said there is a long Anglican tradition of honoring Mary - there is even a shrine to her in Walsingham, England - but the degree of devotion varies greatly within the faith.

``I can name a couple of parishes here in Seattle that have better Marian devotion than some Roman Catholic parishes,'' he said, but to other Anglicans, the notion of honoring her is ``anathema.''

The accord announced Monday is aimed at bridging those extremes, he said.

``There are churches that look with suspicion on people who do these things, and yet we all live together under the same umbrella,'' Chapman said.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; General Discusssion; Theology
KEYWORDS: anglican; catholic; mary; theology
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To: winstonchurchill

There is nothing accretionist about the Church. Public revelation is closed. The enhanced understanding of those revelations with continue until the end of time, however.

You really sell God short on His ability to create the greatest piece of literature ever. The way you interpret the Bible, Jackie Collins could have written it. There are endless treasures beneath the surface, which are waiting for discovery.

So far as 'man-made' goes, I suppose that applies to the canon of the Bible, too? I mean, talk about man-made! Forty or so Gospels whiddled down to four? Are you sure the men who entered the Synod of Hippo were acting at the behest of the Holy Spirit? Could be they were just acting as "men"? Hmmm.


21 posted on 05/17/2005 8:05:04 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever
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To: Pyro7480
"That doesn't mean that the high-Church Anglicans can be reconciled with the Catholic Church, especially since there are several Anglican-Use Catholic parishes in the U.S."

I'm aware of the Anglican-Use parishes but they are just a shell of contemporary Anglican language and ritual overlaid on the standard American model of Catholicism. There is much to admire in Roman Catholicism but there is much that is also troubling to this Anglican.

The American version of the Catholic church seems to be on an inexorable slide toward "progressive" theology and doctrine. This is exactly what happened to the ECUSA. Having jumped one sinking ship 20 years ago, I'd be leery of boarding another that is ripping itself apart on the very same iceberg.

At least it looks that way from the outside, LOL!
22 posted on 05/17/2005 8:11:46 AM PDT by Gingersnap
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To: winstonchurchill
The RCC, like the Mormon church, is unabashedly accretionist, i.e. their respective organizations have established mechanisms to add to (or change)their belief structure. as time goes along, beyond those concepts found in Scripture.

Protestants do the same thing, all the time. Study up on the history of premillenial dispensationalism sometime.

Incidentally, Catholicism can only expand on what the Apostles taught us and what the Church has always believed. We cannot contradict it.

23 posted on 05/17/2005 8:13:20 AM PDT by Campion (Truth is not determined by a majority vote -- Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: Rutles4Ever


BTTT.
Well stated.


24 posted on 05/17/2005 8:15:36 AM PDT by onyx (Pope John Paul II - May 18, 1920 - April 2, 2005 = SANTO SUBITO!)
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To: Gingersnap
I'm aware of the Anglican-Use parishes but they are just a shell of contemporary Anglican language and ritual overlaid on the standard American model of Catholicism.

You really think so? Other than parishes with Tridentine Masses, there are no other Catholic churches in the U.S. other than the Anglican Use where the priest says the Mass ad orientem (with his back to the congregation), and where their new churches are built in a traditional style. What are your reasons for your opinion?

25 posted on 05/17/2005 8:15:49 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("All my own perception of beauty both in majesty and simplicity is founded upon Our Lady." - Tolkien)
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To: winstonchurchill
Most RCC adherents will readily concede that their devotion to/worship of Mary is based upon their organization's 'tradition' and not upon the Scriptures. What about the Catholic Rosary? That is biblical.
26 posted on 05/17/2005 8:19:33 AM PDT by JustMytwocents70
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To: winstonchurchill
Most RCC adherents will readily concede that their devotion to/worship of Mary is based upon their organization's 'tradition' and not upon the Scriptures. What about the Catholic Rosary? That is biblical.
27 posted on 05/17/2005 8:19:52 AM PDT by JustMytwocents70
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To: mike182d

>Are you suggesting that the canonized New Testament, in the form we have today, floated down from heaven and was not made by men?<

This is how Peter would answer your Question.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.


2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.


28 posted on 05/17/2005 8:31:30 AM PDT by Blessed
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To: Blessed
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

If private individuals aren't meant to interpret the Scriptures on their own, who is?
29 posted on 05/17/2005 8:33:20 AM PDT by mike182d ("Let fly the white flag of war." - Zapp Brannigan)
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To: Pyro7480
"What are your reasons for your opinion?"

I agree that the Anglican-Use parishes are less "progressive" in liturgical tone and more traditional than many other types of RCC parishes (from what I've heard from friends, anyway).

My perspective comes from being part of a very Anglo-Catholic, high church sort of parish. We use the 1928 BCP so a rite more or less finalized in 1980 or doesn't seem wildly traditional to me. LOL!

Although some Anglo-Catholics do long for union with Rome, I'm not among them. Most of us are skeptical of the structure of Roman Catholicism and feel that there is not enough reliance on scripture. Then too there are doctrinal issues between us, some of which are weighty. Even where we do agree doctrinally, we disagree on approach.
30 posted on 05/17/2005 8:53:07 AM PDT by Gingersnap
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To: Campion
Rapture

and

Protestants do the same thing, all the time. Study up on the history of premillenial dispensationalism sometime.

We don't all, by any means, buy the whole complex dispensationalist model, with it's multiple ressurections, multiple judgement days, and multiple returns of Christ (visible and invisible) scattered over a thousand plus years.

31 posted on 05/17/2005 8:55:04 AM PDT by Lee N. Field
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To: Gingersnap

What the heck kind of statement is that? Not dividing? So are the Protestants now believers in Our Lady's intercession? Are we going to sell her out as we have done at Vatican II and not call her the mediatrix?

I have been reading that the Pope not taking the Papal Oath any longer (as he as well as the Priests are just "presiders"), the liberalization of the seminaries, ordination of homosexual liberal Candidates was all so the Catolic's church insistance on Participation in the WCC and the issues have been the Pope and woman ordination and Mary. Now that Vatican II and the aftermath of has sold out all on these issues-what is stopping the unification and one world religion?

Most Anglican services are more reverent that the Novus Ordo services anyway.

Traditional catholicism for my and my family forever. Cant tolerate weakness and compromise of Our Lord and his church and his mother for anyone


32 posted on 05/17/2005 8:59:08 AM PDT by BulldogCatholic
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To: mike182d

>If private individuals aren't meant to interpret the Scriptures on their own, who is?<

The point Peter was making is that scripture is not a production of the human mind as you implied but is "God breathed". The Greek word translated interpretation is better translated origin in this passage when put into context with verses 19 and 21.

Num 16:28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for [I have] not [done them] of mine own mind.


33 posted on 05/17/2005 8:59:38 AM PDT by Blessed
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To: Lee N. Field
We don't all, by any means, buy the whole complex dispensationalist model

Of course not, but the claim that Protestant theology (what kind?) is some sort of crystalline, unchanging monolith totally and perfectly predicated on Scripture is just ridiculous. Y'all argue among yourselves on all sorts of things, and practically none of you agree with the original Reformers (meaning your theology has evolved quite a bit since their time), so claiming that only Catholic or Mormon theology evolves or adds anything to Scripture, while Protestant theology of any stripe doesn't, is patently and obviously false.

34 posted on 05/17/2005 9:22:00 AM PDT by Campion (Truth is not determined by a majority vote -- Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: BulldogCatholic
"What the heck kind of statement is that? Not dividing?"

What statement are you talking about?
35 posted on 05/17/2005 9:24:06 AM PDT by Gingersnap
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To: Gingersnap
I'm afraid you are misinformed. I have actually seen one of the Anglican Use Masses (via DVD from one of the parishes in Texas).

They do NOT use "contemporary Anglican language" - they use the old prayerbook (I don't know for sure if it's the 1928 or an earlier version, but I think it's actually the 1559 which was the most Catholic of the early BCPs), with the Words of Consecration translated from the Latin in use in England just before the Reformation. The service is as High as I have ever seen -- full vestments, incense, celebrated ad orientem with the greatest reverence -- just about as far from happy-clappy liberal Catholic services as you can get.

36 posted on 05/17/2005 9:29:15 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: AnAmericanMother
> I wish people would quit saying that Catholics "worship" Mary. They don't...
-----------------------------------------------------------------

" ... Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.

Then he said to me, "See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."

Revelation 22:8-9
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Nobody on Earth
knows exactly what "worship"
means. Obviously

John was true to God,
yet still the angel told John
not to kneel by him . . .

When people kneel down
at statues of Mary and
pray "to" her, it looks

pretty similar
to what John was gonna do
when the angel balked.

Almost certainly
what matters is in our heart.
On the other hand,

I'd worry about
this Scripture if I wanted
to pray "to" Mary.

37 posted on 05/17/2005 9:37:21 AM PDT by theFIRMbss
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To: AnAmericanMother
"I'm afraid you are misinformed. "

It wouldn't be the first time. I'm relying on what friends in California have told me about their church. Their descriptions seemed more evocative of the 1979 BCP. Perhaps those parishes have the ability to use one of several rites (as in the ECUSA today) and some elect to be more formal. Good for them.
38 posted on 05/17/2005 9:40:32 AM PDT by Gingersnap
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To: Gingersnap; AnAmericanMother

Here is the liturgy of one Anglican-Use Parish in Houston for your review:

http://walsingham-church.org/mass.htm


39 posted on 05/17/2005 9:42:58 AM PDT by Bohemund
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To: theFIRMbss

John was attempting to do more than just kneel, though that's what you limited it to. The verse says he was going to "worship" the angel. The angel stopped him, and rightly so. I'll repeat what the others have said, we Catholics do NOT worship Mary, nor any other saint. They are NOT deities. There is one God, in Trinity. That IS Catholic Doctrine. Period.


40 posted on 05/17/2005 9:44:43 AM PDT by Romish_Papist (The times are out of step with the Catholic Church. God Bless Pope Benedict XVI.)
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