Posted on 05/04/2005 10:53:04 AM PDT by Quix
It is.
But it is spreading not just through Rutz's cell church movement, but also through the Anglicans, the Catholics, the Pentecostals, the Baptists and other followers of Christ.
And these other groups see miracles and massive conversions as well.
I agree with you and Quix that even as we see those in the West lose the precious gift of faith in the saving sacrifice of Christ Jesus and the outpouring of His mercy and grace, others around the world are finding it.
We here can learn from them.
THX.
AGREED.
bump
Amazingly, in today's church true believers are often labeled "contentious."
Christ was often "contentious." Nice people don't get nailed on crosses.
Thanks for the ping!
***We here can learn from them.***
Indeed!
(They may be sending missionaries to us some day soon!)
Thanks for the ping!
Freed from keeping the Ten Commandments as a basis for our acceptance (justification) before God? - Yes.
Do you remember Paul's words to Peter?
"When I saw that they were not following the truth of the Good News, I said to Peter in front of all the others, "Since you, a Jew by birth, have discarded the Jewish laws and are living like a Gentile, why are you trying to make these Gentiles obey the Jewish laws you abandoned?
You and I are Jews by birth, not `sinners' like the Gentiles. And yet we Jewish Christians know that we become right with God, not by doing what the law commands, but by faith in Jesus Christ.
So we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be accepted by God because of our faith in Christ--and not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be saved by obeying the law.
But what if we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then find out that we are still sinners? Has Christ led us into sin? Of course not! Rather, I make myself guilty if I rebuild the old system I already tore down.
For when I tried to keep the law, I realized I could never earn God's approval. So I died to the law so that I might live for God."
***Or do we get to pick and choose which "laws" are still pertinent and which ones are unnecessary?***
Are you saying you believe that we are still under the law?
Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.
Indeed!...
"For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." - Rom 8
*** By that definition, would that then render the Bible as a "tradition of men?"***
The Bible is the Word of God. Peter even refered to Paul's writings a "Scripture"
"There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures." - 2 Pet 3:16
And Paul refered to the Gospels as "scripture".
***And yet, its funny how many "Bible-believing" Christians will claim that unless you believe in the Bible, God will not accept you.***
If a person knows of, and refuses to accept the Bible and it's message then they will not be accepted by God.
Do you not believe this?
***I would use the same criteria used by the early Christian Church: those who adhere to the authoritative teachings of the Apostles.***
Well that would be a very good criteria. And if we add that those teachings are contained on the NT then I think this group is fairly safe for they hold to the authority of the Scriptures much more tightly than most Westerners do.
When Rabbi Sha’ul (a second generation Pharisee) speaks of ‘Holy days’ he is referring to Leviticus 23. In the above scripture he's speaking to those who have adopted the Feasts of The LORD.
Name one Christian holiday that falls out on the new moon.
***The Bible is a product of Apostolic authority? Why does it then trump it?***
The Bible is the product of the Holy Spirit.
Do those with supposed "Apostolic authority" trump the Holy Spirit or are the subject to Him and His words?
***(a second generation Pharisee)***
And first generation Christian. He counted his Pharisee position as dung. (Phil. 3)
***In the above scripture he's speaking to those who have adopted the Feasts of The LORD.***
Are you saying that he was not addressing the Sabbath?
Well then for what purpose are you asking whether you NEED to keep them? So that you will be accepted by God or so you will feel good about yourself?
***Am I still required to "keep the sabbath holy"?***
The new requirements meet and exceed the old requirements. Every part of the Christian's life is the be holy. Our very bodies are a sacrifice to Him.
Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Do you think you can keep the other six days unholy?
But by what power are we to do this, seeing that we were unable to keep even the lesser requirement of the Law? By the power of the new birth, regeneration, the indwelling Spirit. We are not "required" to do anything because all we can do is fail. When we, by faith, accept God's free gift of salvation He gives us gives us a new heart that wants to keep the law and He gives us the Holy Spirit which is the power to keep the Law. This is the promise of the new covenant.
"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people."
As Paul said...
"For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." - Rom 8
The basis of our acceptance before God is the blood of Christ alone - nothing more, nothing less. The person who, by faith, has entered into this covenant of grace will desire to do, by virtue of their new nature, anything and everything that pleases God. These acts are done out of gratitude and love, not out of a desire to rack up points in the hope of earning God's acceptance.
***Which "Gospels?" Paul's epistles predate the writing of all the gospels. I think you mean "Scriptures" which would have been what we know as the Old Testament only.***
Actually Paul in 1 Tim. quotes Luke, (or a variant of Matt.) and calls it "Scripture". Theories about the precise date of compilation of the Gospels are only theories. Paul quotes the words of Christ as "Scripture". Many people are suprised to learn this.
*** As a nation has civil authority, so to does the Apostolic Church have a spiritual authority.***
Well if you are under the law then you have fallen from grace...
Galatians 5:4
"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."
***The Church does not come from the Bible, the Bible comes from the Church***
This is not strictly true. "Scripture" as a source of final authority existed long before the Church in the form of the OT. Scripture predates the Church.
Scripture is the Word of God. It is God's voice to us put down in black and white. It is ultimatley not the product of man but the breath of God Himself.
Mary may have given birth to Jesus but that didn't make her Jesus' master did it? Even so the Church may have given birth to the New Testament but that doesn't mean it is master over the New Testament.
***The Bible, albeit an integral part of a Christian person's faith cannot be their foundation ***
You are correct, the Bible without obedience is no foundation. But Jesus promised us...
"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock."
That sounds like a pretty firm foundation to me.
*** in every denomination there is an infallible interpreter of God's eternal Word: either the successor to Peter as appointed by Christ or yourself.***
Who interprets "Peter's successor" (i.e. the Magesterium) to YOU? You must read the voluminous history of interpretation put out by the Magesterium in order to understand it, but how do you know you've interpreted the Magesterium's teaching correctly???
If you think you are incapable of understanding the Bible then WHY do you thing you are capable of understanding the Magesterium?
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