"That being said, the author has Hebrew 13:17 backwards. This verse is not an excuse to criticize the pastor, but is a requirement to pray for him and to obey him."
If it is not an excuse to criticize the pastor, then how come you criticize the author, whom if I remember is also a pastor, with these words: "What kind of heretical nonsense is this guy spewing?"
"The pastor is the one who has to give an account for his flock and in essence the verse is saying that when it comes down to it...."
Yes, and that was the point that the author is making. When a church gets to be a certain size, it becomes impossible for the pastor to perform that task. It is also impossible for the pastoral staff to perform that function.
I have been in some really big churches and I never knew a single one of the pastors of any of them. The function of the pastor in the Hebrews verse has been given over to the small cell leader of these big churches. Unfortunately, these people are often more in need than the people in the cells.
Now, I am in a relatively small church and know the pastor on a personal basis. We can have coffee nearly any time I pick up the phone. It is just a shame that he is one of those Baptists who doesn't drink otherwise he could share in the discussions over beer that Christian and I have.
I believe that was the point of the author and I was therefore quite surprised to see that you called that idea heretical, especially now that you are defending the very point that the author was making in the first place.
Perhaps everyone needs to just take a breather. This thread seems like every single other one and is quite contentious.
Colin.
My church has approximately 3,000 members and "regular attenders." We have nine pastors, all of whom know me. I am closer to a couple because of the ministries with which I am involved.
I could have come and been anonymous every Sunday, never venturing to be a part of the congregation. But that wouldn't be the pastor's fault.
And who's fault is that? I would say it is your fault. Maybe those churches became big is because they disciple their members to serve each other and encourage their members to become involved in ministries. sounds like you expect your pastor to serve you rather than you serving the church.
I appreciate your sticking with and to the topic, Colin. You and Christian must have some pretty interesting debates.
First of all I don't know that he's a pastor but I know he's posting an article critical of other pastors and their methods and especially critical of pastors who seem to be increasing the size of their flock.
When a church gets to be a certain size, it becomes impossible for the pastor to perform that task. It is also impossible for the pastoral staff to perform that function.
Well gee willikers. When a church gets that size its not time to praise the lord for the harvest, but to criticize the pastor because his job is now made impossible. Hey Colin, that's where the idea of the Pastor as CEO comes in. If God calls a man to have a properous ministry, I would suggest that God is also calling him to delegate many or most of the jobs that can be delegated so that he can concentrate on those aspects of the ministry that he is best suited to. Our senior pastor essentially teaches the flock and makes decisions regarding the direction of the ministry. Most of the other pastoral duties are assigned to the other 19 full time pastors. Is it run like a corporation? In many ways it is. So what? The key is to make it run efficiently. The pastor is not required to do all the biblical duties, just to make sure they get done. He is responsible to God for that job, not you and not me.
I have been in some really big churches and I never knew a single one of the pastors of any of them.
Gee, whose fault is that? If you wait around after the service, I suspect they are available for prayer and consultation. If you just want to meet them to say that you met them, then I suspect that with a large church you are simply wasting their valuable time, especially if you wish to meet and confer with the senior pastor. At my church there are usually about a half dozen men leaning up against the flyer table waiting anxiously to talk to anyone who wants to talk to them. They are the junior pastors. I'm sure they would love to speak to you or counsel with you or even invite you over for a BBQ. For the most part they look lonely.
Frankly I've only met with my senior pastor on one occasion. I could meet with him every Sunday if I wanted to waste his time and mine, but I don't. He's a busy guy with more responsibility to God than me and I'd just as soon see him spend time with someone else. If I have a spiritual problem there are plenty of other pastors who are itching to speak to me or counsel me.
Now, I am in a relatively small church and know the pastor on a personal basis. We can have coffee nearly any time I pick up the phone. It is just a shame that he is one of those Baptists who doesn't drink otherwise he could share in the discussions over beer that Christian and I have.
I might be willing to bet that the pastor to parishoner ratio is higher in my church than yours. We have 19 full time pastors and hundreds of volunteer counselors. We usually get between 10,000 and 12,000 people who regularly attend some service during the week. That's a full time pastor for every 526 people that show up. If you add in the 100 or so trained counselors that's a pastor or a trained biblical counselor for every 100 people.
I believe that was the point of the author and I was therefore quite surprised to see that you called that idea heretical, especially now that you are defending the very point that the author was making in the first place.
the heretical statement was in regard to the author's contention that it is impossible for a pastor to fulfill the duties of a pastor in a large church. The fact is that if he delegates his dutes and is a good steward of his managerial skills and his time, and if God is in charge, then ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE. Something guys, like the author of this article, seem to forget that fact or ignore it.