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To: Tantumergo
Hippolytus was reconciled to the Church just before his matyrdom. He was not separated from the Church on his death.

I would think that Marcel Lefebvre would need to be reconciled with the Church prior to his death in order to be considered for Sainthood.

26 posted on 04/25/2005 9:15:02 AM PDT by frogjerk
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To: frogjerk; jo kus

"Hippolytus was reconciled to the Church just before his matyrdom. He was not separated from the Church on his death.
I would think that Marcel Lefebvre would need to be reconciled with the Church prior to his death in order to be considered for Sainthood."

"Hippolytus of Rome was reconcilled with the Church BEFORE his martrydom. So when he died, he was not at the time considered excommunicated."

You are both correct re Hippolytus, however, Joan of Arc died excommunicate and was still raised to the altars.

There are also other instances of excommunication being lifted posthumously. Notably when Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras lifted the excommunications of Michael Caerularius and Cardinal Humbert after Vatican II.

If a future Papacy were suitably disposed, it would be quite possible for Lefebvre to be considered for Sainthood, although I think the chances are remote.


41 posted on 04/25/2005 11:19:42 AM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: frogjerk

There have been conspicuous political motives behind the public image of Lefebvre promoted from the Vatican. He and what he stood for was no different than that of the traditional Church. That was the problem. The New Vatican was desperately trying to shed the trappings of the Faith.

The elephant in the middle of the room here is this: Lefebvre nor his bishops were ever accused of having held or taught any erroneous doctrine. This is of no small significance. The spin job foisted on the faithful in this regard has been scandalous, in the very mildest of terms. Diabolically disoriented is a little closer to the truth.

The "official" story that Lefebvre was some kind of rebel is a big farce. What was the basis of the so-called excommunication? It could be compared to impeaching a member of Congress who is too insistent upon relying on the Constitution while other Congressmen are intent on a reform. Does a conservative who wants to rely on the Constitution commit some kind of crime just because everyone else wants to ignore the Constitution??

I can tell you this much: what the key players are willing to admit behind closed doors would shock your pants off.

Was the Traditional Latin Mass ever abrogated? Can it EVER be abrogated?

Can any pastor of the Church of whatever rank or dignity (including Pope!) ever forbid an ordained Roman Rite priest from celebrating the Traditional Latin Mass? (Hint: take a look at Quo Primum, and the Commission of cardinals called by JPII to study this question.)

Was there really any excommunication of Lefebvre and his 4 bishops?




45 posted on 04/25/2005 11:47:04 AM PDT by donbosco74 (Sancte Padre Pio, ora pro nobis, nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.)
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To: frogjerk
I would think that Marcel Lefebvre would need to be reconciled with the Church prior to his death in order to be considered for Sainthood.

Saint Joan of Ark was dead prior to her elevation.

Further, you bring to mind all of the heretic bishops appointed in fact by the atheist communists in China who demand loyalty to the party, and no recognition of the Pope as the Vicar of Christ on Earth.

Your mention of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, brings to mind the double standard the Holy See applied to him for consecrating bishops without the approval of the pope, and the Vatican's willful failure to apply the same rules to those heretic bishops named by Chinese communist government to run the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association (CCPA).

The SSPX priests and bishops declare fidelity to the pope unlike the commie priests of the CCPA. Further, it was the CCPA which refused to attend the funeral of JPII or the installation N.O. Mass of BXVI. Why? Because the communists want the Vatican to cease recognizing Taiwan, and the Holy See hasn't agreed to take that action.

The underground Roman Catholic Church faithful have also declared their fidelity to the Holy See. Yet, it is the Holy See that offers them no solace - demanding instead the underground faithful, bishops and priests 'negotiate' with the heretic CCPA. In the meantime the SSPX is also being denied full recognition by the Church. The underground faithful have no church buildings. They meet secretly and perform Holy Mass in the homes of the faithful.

'Underground' bishops appointed by the pope have been imprisoned, tortured and have and are suffering a martyr's death to this day.

As recently as January twenty-fourth of this year, Bishop John Gao Kexian, of Yantai, China, died in prison where he had been for the past five years......His body was cremated and buried the day following his death in the presence of police officers. No relative or faithful were allowed to attend the event. The Bishop died without any religious comforts and his body was not blessed.

The above is a brief description of just some of the hypocrisy of the Holy See in its' capricious application of Cannon Law. In one arm it is privately embracing heretics, and with the other it locks the faithful away from its protection and recognition.

Terri Schiavo, please forgive us.
Our Lady of La Salette, pray for us.
Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us.
Saint Joseph, Patron of the Universal Church and Protector of the Faithful,
pray for us.
Saints Peter and Paul, pray for us.
Pope Saint Gregory the Great, pray for us.
Pope Saint Pius V, pray for us.
Pope Saint Leo XIII, pray for us.
Pope Saint Pius X, pray for us.
Saint Padre Pio, pray for us.
Saint Athanasius, fierce fighter of the Arians, pray for us.
Saint Clare, the great apostle of Perpetual Eucharistic Adoration, pray for us.
Sister Maria Lucia of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart, pray for us
Saint Michael the Archangel, protect the faithful from the snares of the disciples of Lucifer in disguise,
and bring ruin to those who
intimidate, oppress, imprison, torture, and murder His faithful servants
throughout the world.

71 posted on 04/25/2005 7:05:57 PM PDT by Robert Drobot (Da mihi virtutem contra hostes tuos.)
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