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To: Leo Carpathian; ccmay; Cicero; Destro

Here is irony for you -- Catholics wonder about the lack of progress in relations with the Orthodox, and in the same breath demonize these same Orthodox they are supposedly trying to merge with, heaping hatred upon them. How can the Orthodox resist such overwhelming Christian love and understanding? Maybe the real problem is staring these Catholics in the face? It certainly would be, if they looked hard in the mirror.

Interesting that some vocal catholics basically dismiss the entire Russian Orthodox church as communist. One can only appreciate what a vile insult this is, if one knows that the Russian Orthodox endured perhaps the greatest slaughter and martydom of Christians in the past century at the hands of the communists. Communist agents in the priesthood were readily identified and purged when communism fell, and Communism is not taught in Russian seminaries (I really wonder about "liberation theology" embraced in a minority of Catholic seminaries, though).

Of course, the Orthodox/Roman Catholic split long predates the existence of communism, so perhaps it is folly to focus on it as a reason for the split. Perhaps it is easy and emotionally satisfying to caricature sincere Orthodox christians as a bunch of communists rather than facing the problems honestly. Unfortunately such ugly gossiping about the Orthodox sets back true understanding and poisons the well.

Cicero actually suggests that the Russian Orthodox benefited from Stalin. This is about as intellectually honest as saying Hitler benefitted the Jews. Educate yourself about the catastrophe of slaughter and repression the Russian Orthodox endured under Stalin. A couple of seminaries weighed against this means nothing.

CCmay first dismisses any substantive reason for the split, then questions how papal infallibility could be a reason for it when it came 800 years later. You have to understand there were substantive reasons for the split, and then later there were additional obstacles placed in the way of reunification. The recent innovation of papal infallibility would fall in the second category of additional obstacles. The introduction of papal supremacy, versus papal primacy, would be an example of one of the substantive reasons for original split.

Another additional obstacle is the fact that one of the crusades targetted the Orthodox equivalent of Rome, desecreting, slaughtering and looting fellow Christians. A huge number of religious artifacts in Vatican museums today are dated 1204, the date they were stolen from Constantinople.

A further obstacle would be the extremely tragic history of the Uniates, which goes a very long way to explaining mistrust of Catholic moves in Orthodox countries today. The pope unfortunately exacerbated this wound by sainting one of the key historical uniate figures associated with these attrocities against the orthodox. Sadly this article mentioned nothing about the uniate history, or much of anything else from the perspective of the orthodox.

Nor does the article explain the Orthodox perspective on how several recent Catholic misteps in Russia soured relations. For example, the naming of 12 new catholic Dioceses in Russia on Feb 2002 basically made the Orthodox think that the Catholic "two lungs of the same church" encyclical was a big lie. To use CCmay's words, the Orthodox felt like this was spitting in their eye -- it brought ecumenical efforts in Russia to an abrupt halt, and doomed any possibility of a papal visit.

CCmay dismisses the change to the Nicene creed as mere wording. A very serious theological point is involved, regarding the nature of who is worshipped, one which earlier Catholics in an ecumenical council declared could never, ever be changed -- because it was so essential to the faith. A person who does not care what and how they are worshipping might dismiss a foundational prayer as mere words that are as good as one another. That attitude is alien to the Orthodox. This particular problem could easily be solved, just go back to the prayer that was good enough for the Christians of the first 12 centuries. The pope had no problem reading the original version.

Basically Orthodox believe as Catholics did of the first millenium, and several roman catholic innovations in the second millenium pose additional alienating obstacles to reunification (western catholics of the first centuries might well be equally alienated if they were alive today). Certain aspects of Vatican II probably didn't help. Any future move to admit women or openly gay priests would pose additional obstacles -- thankfully it doesn't look like that will happen.

Hopefully I'm not writing this in vain. Reunification is not going to happen when folks caricature the history, problems, and people involved. I do sincerely pray for unification on the basis of truth. It's not going to happen through trickery, pretending essential aspects of the faith don't matter, or pretending things are the same when they aren't.

Maybe it feels good for some to listen to the roman Catholic echo chamber that completely ignores the Orthodox perspective -- where the roman Catholics are portrayed as being the *only ones* reaching out and doing nothing wrong, and the Russian orthodox are caricatured as all communists being difficult for no substantive reason. Perpetuating this false illusion just sets relations further back. When you demonize the orthodox, you do the demons work. Why not put the same energy into sincere understanding, and have a little humility about it. Then we can all unify on the basis of the original truth faith and be one.


6 posted on 04/11/2005 1:51:45 AM PDT by Mount Athos
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To: Mount Athos
Communist agents in the priesthood were readily identified and purged when communism fell, and Communism is not taught in Russian seminaries

Why you are so sure? Who removed those agents, Putin? He is a former KGB agent, then why should he work against his fellow pals?

Cicero actually suggests that the Russian Orthodox benefited from Stalin. This is about as intellectually honest as saying Hitler benefitted the Jews. Educate yourself about the catastrophe of slaughter and repression the Russian Orthodox endured under Stalin. A couple of seminaries weighed against this means nothing.

This is great exaggeration, Jews suffered enormously more and Hitler never rehabilitated them as Stalin did with Orthodox church.

Another additional obstacle is the fact that one of the crusades targetted the Orthodox equivalent of Rome, desecreting, slaughtering and looting fellow Christians. A huge number of religious artifacts in Vatican museums today are dated 1204, the date they were stolen from Constantinople.

How many times you want to talk about ancient history of Constantinople? Doesn’t the pope apologized for this? Doesn’t the Pope gave back some important icon recently? Think about the future, rolling the same story over and over doesn’t have any sense at all.

Nor does the article explain the Orthodox perspective on how several recent Catholic misteps in Russia soured relations. For example, the naming of 12 new catholic Dioceses in Russia on Feb 2002 basically made the Orthodox think that the Catholic "two lungs of the same church" encyclical was a big lie. To use CCmay's words, the Orthodox felt like this was spitting in their eye -- it brought ecumenical efforts in Russia to an abrupt halt, and doomed any possibility of a papal visit.

Why are you so worried, does Catholic church forcing Orthodox people to convert to Catholicism? Of course no. Then why you want to forbid existence of the Catholic church in Russia and de facto freedom of religion? Does anybody in Catholic countries doing the same to Orthodox church? I never heard about similar stories.

Why Catholic church hasn’t similar problems with non-Russian Orthodox churches? An what Alexy II did to solve bilateral problems between both churches, because it is problem between churches not people.
7 posted on 04/11/2005 6:46:10 AM PDT by Lukasz
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To: Mount Athos
Read about Greek Orthodox Archbishop Iakovos:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1381354/posts

He tried to bring various branches of Orthodox church together, only to be chastised and sidestepped.

From the tone of all those "defenders" of Orthodox church, one can sense how Christian they are. What a contrast with JP II, his efforts, love and mission to right past wrongs and trying to bring back lost flocks, largely created by some rebels who wanted to be their own "jesuses".
10 posted on 04/11/2005 8:00:59 AM PDT by Leo Carpathian (FReeeePeee!)
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To: Mount Athos

Lets not forget that the Shroud of Turin is one of those stolen items.


15 posted on 04/11/2005 8:40:42 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth == Christ)
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To: Mount Athos
Here is irony for you -- Catholics wonder about the lack of progress in relations with the Orthodox, and in the same breath demonize these same Orthodox they are supposedly trying to merge with, heaping hatred upon them. How can the Orthodox resist such overwhelming Christian love and understanding? Maybe the real problem is staring these Catholics in the face? It certainly would be, if they looked hard in the mirror. Interesting that some vocal catholics basically dismiss the entire Russian Orthodox church as communist. One can only appreciate what a vile insult this is, if one knows that the Russian Orthodox endured perhaps the greatest slaughter and martydom of Christians in the past century at the hands of the communists.

You are generalizing and making up statements. If anything Greek Catholics forgave the Orthodox and Communists for the persecution and are opening their arms for possible reunification. If Orthodox still feel (which it looks like) they do not wish to be reunited, then that's your (their) prerogative. Is there room for Orthodox in the Catholic church? Greco Catholics are proof that it is, priests can marry and maintain their beautiful rite.

Under communism, Greek Catholic religion was banned, clergy and faithful were forced to switch to Orthodox or die in gulags and prisons. Church hierarchy was almost destroyed, churches taken away, either converted to Orthodox or desecrated to storage facilities etc. This is not demonizing, but sorry facts.

Entire Russian Orthodox was under Communist and KGB control. To what extend they manage the cleanup still remains to be seen. We hope and pray that this happens soon and if they wish to join the true followers of Christ, they would be welcome with open arms. JP II showed world the true face of Christ, his church and the world showed its love for him and his work during the memorial.

As the mankind is getting more "modern" we keep seeing more and more "jesuses" popping up, starting their own, "better" versions of church (cults) and pressuring the good old one into accepting "their improvements" like gays, women priests, selective worshiping of this or that. I am happy and proud to be a part of Christ's church and have no problem with His apostles and their followers in succession of Popes.

20 posted on 04/11/2005 8:57:56 AM PDT by Leo Carpathian (FReeeePeee!)
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