Posted on 04/05/2005 9:11:13 PM PDT by annalex
Good graphic. It was always the position of the Orthodox Church that Catholic teaching on Trinity made the Holy Ghost "lesser" or "secondary" which your graphic aptly reveals. The orthodox graphic shows that the Father is the first cause and source without confusion or any need to explain further. The Catholic graphic shows what most Catholics believe but deny -- that the Father begts the Son and the Two then begt the Ghost.
Off to presanctified this evening..you are in my prayers.
Why "beget"? The Catholics do not insist on blurring the distinction between proceeding and begetting and my graphic says "proceeds". So does the Latin Creed.
The graphic says nothing about persons being secondary. You wish to see it as dropping the Holy Ghost down. I see it as elevating the Son, in comparison with the Orthodox. Either view is incorrect because it sees the "up" and the "down" of the picture are meaningful. In fact only the relations are meaningful.
The Catholic dogma is that all three persons are consubstantial. There are no lesser persons.
Then stop drawing horizontal and vertical lines for that which cannot be portrayed.
"Elevating" the Son implies that somehow the Creed diminishes Him! So, the true reasons come out of you little by little: first you blurt out that the Vatican doors are 'wide open' so we can come to you, then you say that we somehow diminish the Son.
Obviously, given the Uniates, it doesn't matter to the Catholics because they will take anyone and everyone, regardless of theology or rite, who will recognize the Pope as the absolute ruler of the Church, which is the only condition for "Catholicism" it appears.
You have closed this thread as you have closed the last: the Church teaches that Wisdom (the Father) is the only source and cause; that Word (Son) is eternally begotten by the Father and that the Spirit eternally wells up and proceeds from the Father.
There is nothing to add or subtract from that. The Cause is the Father. The Source is the Father. The Wisdom has never been without the Word or without the Spirit. The Word reflects the Spirit of the Father and in that the Spirit is an "image" of the Son. The Divine Economy is not a two or a three way street -- the Father begets (generates) the Son, the Wisdom begets the Word, the "Sonship" is eternally inherent in that immutable one-way relationship. The Spirit wells up and proceeds from the Wisdom, not the other way around. The procession is unidirectional, from the Source outward.
Your mind generates words. Your words reflect the spirit of your mind, but not the origin of it. It's a one-way relationship. Whatever character you have is in your mind, the way you think, understand and express yourself. Together, the Wisdom, the Word and the Spirit make up what we call God, just as the mind, words and our own spirit make us because we are, made that way, in His image. Without those Three there is no God just as without those three there is neither annalex nor Kosta.
The portrayal of the Trinity in HTML is just as good as portrayal of the Trinity in words. Both methods have limitations.
"Elevating" the Son implies that somehow the Creed diminishes Him!
It doesn't. You interpreted the Catholic graphic as diminishing in #41, and I point out that the Orthodox graphic does the same thing to different persons.
You have closed this thread as you have closed the last: the Church teaches that Wisdom (the Father) is the only source and cause; that Word (Son) is eternally begotten by the Father and that the Spirit eternally wells up and proceeds from the Father.
The Father is the cause, the Son is begotten and the Spirit proceeds from both. That is why the Son is begotten and the spirit is not. Case closed, door open.
May I ignore the rest? It's late and you are agitated, and I was reminded that I must not occasion that.
The overall position of the Church is that even cultures ignorant of Christ have a correct religious instinct written in their heart. We should not be surprised if we find elements of revealed wisdom discovered independently by cultures otherwise unenlightened.
The overall position of the Church is that even cultures ignorant of Christ have a correct religious instinct written in their heart. We should not be surprised if we find elements of revealed wisdom discovered independently by cultures otherwise unenlightened.
The pagan neo-Platonists, through their study of the pagan Plato, arrived at some very high-level abstractions; the Church fathers took those abstractions and personalized them (using the context of the Bible). I'm not sure who's enlightened there and who's not.
The light is that of Christ. High-level abstractions are an impressive thing but light it ain't.
I saw this comment of yours on this thread, and was wondering if you can elaborate. I think, the dual procession of the Holy Ghost is a real difference, as much as I would like this not to be the case.
Would it not be correct to say that The Father and the Holy Ghost co-beget the Son? This is what the Creed seems to say in "by the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary".
Or am I confusing the incarnation and the trinitarian generation to an intolerable level again?
Yes! Who is God? And What is God? God is the eternal Father. But to be a Father means to be in relationship. With Whom? With His Son Whom He eternally begets. Scripture says “the only-begotten Son” . In fact, there can be only one begotten Son of the Father because this begetting is Absolute and Perfect generation.
Think of it this way, in spiritual life in nature we see that there are two “activities” of our faculties: intellect and will. Because nature images God Who is it’s author, we weakly deduce that God Who is pure Spirit and infinite Substance fulfills both these activities in Infinite Eternity.
The only begotten Son is proceeds eternally form the Divine Intellect. But the Divine Intellect knows all Eternity which is none other than God Himself. Therefore, throughout Eternity the Son is generated by the Father whereby the Father communicates His entire, identical substance to the Son.
Speaking about the natural order, if through intellectual operations a concept is begotten which is the image of the object understood, then in volitional activities an act of love causes an inclination towards the loved one.
Apply the Divine Will to the relationship of the Father and the Son, Who both share completely and identically one and the same substance, but have only different relations towards each other. The “spiration” between them as an act of Love in the Divine Will, complete and Absolute, causes the eternal procession of the Holy Spirit.
Confusing enough? That’s why it is THE mystery of the Catholic Faith, Divinely revealed by Christ.
The line in the Creed concerning the birth of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit refers to the Uncreated Eternal Son’s conception in His Created order (the world) by Mary as His true mother within context of His Incarnation (i.e. His becoming truly a unique human, without changing His Eternal Origin or Substance from His Father – the 2nd great mystery of the Catholic Faith) into His Creation.
Um, I’ll send this now and see how it does;)
whereby the Father communicates His entire being
The only begotten Son is proceeds (The procession here is called "begetting". I didn't mean to confuse it with the procession of the Holy Spirit in the Blessed Trinity.)
This can be deduced from Scripture. The Eastern Church has never really paid historical attention to the fact that the "filioque" was added to combat a heresy that the Western Church was having some troubles with. It had little or nothing to do about trying to redefine an Ecumenical Council, only to clarify the teaching.
I've just pissed off a bunch of the Orthodox;)
ping for later
Thank you for both posts.
The "through the Son" formula does not alter the fact that the Orthodox, -- at least today, -- deny any relation between the Son and the Holy Ghost. This is the weakness Aquinas leverages in his discourse: if the Son is not related to the Ghost, do we still have monotheism? and if He is, then what is it if not begetting?
So, I used to see unity in the "through the Son" language, but these days my Orthodox friends convinced me that the schism is deeper.
I'll do some Orthodox bumps after the Orthodox lent is over.
Or am I confusing the incarnation and the trinitarian generation to an intolerable level again?
I think so. The Incarnation comes after the Trinity. The relation between the Father and Son is generation, or paternity and filiation. The relation between the Father and Son, and the Holy Spirit is procession or spiration.
The More Than Three Persons discourse does not answer the co-paternity of the Holy Ghost quandary directly. Reply to Objection 4 says that since there is a relation of proceeding between Father and the Holy Ghost, the Holy Ghost cannot be in relation of principle even as parent. But Aquinas did not apply the same logic when the Son, though in relation of begetting with respect to the Father, is in relation of principle as spirer.
Moreover, if we know that the Father and the Holy Ghost have one and the same goodness, then it would follow that the fruit of the goodness, the Son, would be co-begotten by them.
The reply to Objection 4 would still stand, because of the fact that the infinite loop purported in Objection 4 would have to alternate between procession and filiation and therefore break, leaving the number of Divine Persons at 3.
The only part of "Reply to Objection 4" that I understand is that goodness is of the essence of God and is shared by all three Persons.
I don't understand the rest of it. I have to do more studying 8-)
But Aquinas did not apply the same logic when the Son, though in relation of begetting with respect to the Father, is in relation of principle as spirer.
Moreover, if we know that the Father and the Holy Ghost have one and the same goodness, then it would follow that the fruit of the goodness, the Son, would be co-begotten by them.
I think this is addressed in post #14.
The reply to Objection 4 would still stand, because of the fact that the infinite loop purported in Objection 4 would have to alternate between procession and filiation and therefore break, leaving the number of Divine Persons at 3.
This part I think I understand, in that goodness belongs to the essence of God. As St. Thomas says in post #14, there is no absolute difference between Persons, but only differences of relation.
Sorry that I can't be of any more help. This is a subject worth studying.
Christ is risen! ;)
Indeed He's risen.
I need to understand this a bit more, particularly the Orthodox side.
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