Justification is by Grace Alone

Do you respect me? If so, you do not show it by your insistence on calling something that I am purely basing on Scripture "your gospel". I have done my best by "speaking the thruth in love"(Ephesians 4:15). I wish you the best in your walk with Christ, but I can't continue discussions with you because of your lack of respect of my beliefs. God bless.

I respect truth and those that hold the truth without compromise.

The Church of Christ is considered outside professing Protestantism. The fact is you do not believe that any of the posters here except other COC are saved.

I do not know if you are saved or not, but I do not disregard the possibility off hand.

I believe you teach a false gospel, I am sorry if that is offensive to you but sometimes the truth is offensive.

I have spent time showing you the error and you have decided to say that is a "lack of love" . To me there is no greater love than a proper presentation of the Gospel .

I have spent time showing you the error and you have decided to say that is a "lack of love" . To me there is no greater love than a proper presentation of the Gospel .

Amen!

When Jesus soundly, at times rather sarcastically and firmly corrected the religious leaders of His time of earthly incarnation, did He do so in love?

I would submit that He did. Love for the Truth, love for those in error knowing those errors are fatal and love for those who could be deceived by errors, and did so at tremendous risk.

I also submit that the correction of jkl's errors are done in love for the very same reasons, and at the risk of being called mean, hateful and other pejoratives.

If you don't mind, I have a couple more queries for you to ponder concerning the idea that fallen man has a natural ability to submit to Christ.

1. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit plays any role in the sinner coming to faith in Christ?

2. Do you believe that, apart from any supernatural work of the Holy Spirit, the sinner, by nature, desires to come to Christ?

Thank you in advance for your response.

***The Holy Spirit changes people through the Word of God. I do believe that God can bring people in contact with one another in order that one might hear the Gospel. It is through the Word of God that people's lives are changed.***

How is it that God can manipulate situations so that people are brought together, which is in interferrence with the free lives of people, but that God cannot do anything else because it violates man's free will? It does seem to be talking about both sides of the mouth to say that God can violate man's free will in one thing but not in another. It does seem mighty convenient.

In the service of the Lord,
Christian.

***I have lots of Reformed Baptist brethren and don't know a single one who would agree that fallen man is a "free moral agent", no, not one. :-)***

Well, then none of them can be a good Southern Baptist.

From our Baptist Faith & Message:

V. God's Purpose of Grace

Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the FREE AGENCY OF MAN, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end. It is the glorious display of God's sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility.

All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ and temporal judgments on themselves; yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

Genesis 12:1-3; Exodus 19:5-8; 1 Samuel 8:4-7,19-22; Isaiah 5:1-7; Jeremiah 31:31ff.; Matthew 16:18-19; 21:28-45; 24:22,31; 25:34; Luke 1:68-79; 2:29-32; 19:41-44; 24:44-48; John 1:12-14; 3:16; 5:24; 6:44-45,65; 10:27-29; 15:16; 17:6,12,17-18; Acts 20:32; Romans 5:9-10; 8:28-39; 10:12-15; 11:5-7,26-36; 1 Corinthians 1:1-2; 15:24-28; Ephesians 1:4-23; 2:1-10; 3:1-11; Colossians 1:12-14; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; 2 Timothy 1:12; 2:10,19; Hebrews 11:39–12:2; James 1:12; 1 Peter 1:2-5,13; 2:4-10; 1 John 1:7-9; 2:19; 3:2.

***Of course being in bondage has bearing on the idea of "free moral agency".***

Nope. As you can see from the SBC Faith & Message, all true Southern Baptists believe in the free agency of man, including all of the SBC Calvinists. Either the Calvinists are really confused about the Baptist Faith & Message or they really don't believe in man's moral depravity.

Take your pick.

***By the way, Psalm 51 is a psalm of confession and repentence of a regenerated man who confessing his sin to restore communion with God that had been broken due to his sin, not a prayer for salvation itself.***

This does seem to contradict your earlier statement: "Paul describes two states, either a slave to the sin nature, with it's dominion over you, or a slave to Christ." So, am I to believe that David was a slave to the LORD, but still seeming to be a slave to his sin nature?

Also, you interpretation of Romans 3 is wrong too. Obviously, there are some who seek after God unless you want to admit that there are none even among the saved who seek after God.

Colin.

***The Bible takes for granted that we should pray because it teaches that God can save people and deliver them from their rebellion. Are you claiming that God has no such right?***

No, never made that claim.

***If all fallen men already naturally have the moral ability to believe, and God can do nothing more, as you are saying, then what use is there in praying?***

No, I never said that God could do nothing or nothing more. It does appear that he can do quite a bit, such as reveal himself like he did with Paul.

***If God cannot actually go in a change their hearts' disposition, then what are you, in fact, praying for?***

Well, like I said, for starters, for God to reveal himself to them. You can also pray that God send his servants to to preach the gospel to them.

Do you not ask God to send people to those who are lost? Or, do you just ask God to zap them.

Colin.

Well, like I said, for starters, for God to reveal himself to them.

God has already revealed Himself to them. Please see Romans 2:

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

So, since God has already revealed Himself, even His eternal Godhead, why don't they believe?

You can also pray that God send his servants to to preach the gospel to them.

God does that regularly as well, yet they don't believe. Why not?

This does seem to contradict your earlier statement: "Paul describes two states, either a slave to the sin nature, with it's dominion over you, or a slave to Christ." So, am I to believe that David was a slave to the LORD, but still seeming to be a slave to his sin nature?
So, you believe David to have been unregenerate when he penned Psalm 51?

Are you not familiar with Romans 7:

14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

So, is Paul regenerate or unregnerate when saying that?

Also, you interpretation of Romans 3 is wrong too. Obviously, there are some who seek after God unless you want to admit that there are none even among the saved who seek after God.

Romans 3 is speaking of the unregenerate man in his natural state of being in rebellion, and not the regenerate. My interpretation is correct.

Do you not ask God to send people to those who are lost? Or, do you just ask God to zap them.

I pray that God do what He promised in Ezeliel 36:

26I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

That's not God sitting around waiting for sinful men to seek Him or to "make a decision" for Christ, that is God making a radical change through radical heart tranplantion.

***So, since God has already revealed Himself, even His eternal Godhead, why don't they believe?***

In verse 21, it clearly says that "they knew God." So, it does seem as if in the verses you mention (Romans 1, not 2) that in some manner they believed in God.

***God does that regularly as well, yet they don't believe. Why not?***

Funny that you say that. I've never had anybody come up to me and preach the gospel. I've talked to other people who do believe when they hear the gospel. I've talked to even other people who don't believe the first time, but the second or the third.

Paul was clearly a believer in God, yet the Lord chose to reveal himself to Paul and make him a true believer. Perhaps God is simply waiting for the right time to reveal himself in a way meaningful to salvation.

I guess in your theology, only a Calvinist has the right to pray for someone's salvation.

Like I said, aparently since God in your opinion has already revealed himself to everyone and has already sent people to preach the gospel to them, that you should simply pray for God to zap people and save them no matter what they believe or confess or hear. Do I have that right? It does seem to make sense. You can't pray for God to reveal himself because you tell me he already has. That would mean you think that God didn't do a good enough job the first time. And, since you think they already have missionaries, God doesn't need to send more. So, you can't pray for that. All you seem to be able to pray for is a Holy zap.

Colin.

In verse 21, it clearly says that "they knew God." So, it does seem as if in the verses you mention (Romans 1, not 2) that in some manner they believed in God.

Having an intellectual assent does not equate to believing God, the demons believe in God, and tremble.

Funny that you say that. I've never had anybody come up to me and preach the gospel.

Really? What do you consider to be "preaching the gospel"?

Btw, you have skipped over a few queries, any reason for that?

jkl: "I am still waiting for someone to explain how Jesus' statement in Mark 16:16 does not mean what it clearly says"

Here is the text of that passage (NKJV):

Mark 16:
15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

So parsing v.16 semantically, you purport the following:
Believe + Baptism = Salvation.

(Regrettably, in earlier posts, you have even added stipulations to this equation that are not present in this verse. JKL: "In order for a person to be saved, according to the Bible, they must believe, REPENT, CONFESS, and be baptized" - emphasis mine)

But logically, someone could also claim (and I think it has been in an earlier post) that:
Believe = Salvation
where Baptism is not a necessity for salvation, but a product of said salvation.
As a matter of fact, the statement "believe and you shall be saved" (without mention of baptism) is the more prevalent of those found in scripture. At this time I will not provide a tally as proof, but I shall if you press the issue.

Even the following half of v.16 implies that unbelief is enough to disqualify the candidate - it nowhere mentions that lack of baptism is cause for disqualification. As a matter of fact, I would be impressed if you could provide scripture that distinctly states that lack of baptism will negate salvation. I can certainly show MANY cases where disbelief negates salvation.

But more to the point, even belief (which is an action/reponse of man) is not the root of salvation hence much of the above argument is secondary. The only way any of us are truly saved is through rebirth imposed upon us by God which MUST precede belief, repentance, confession and baptism. In essence, you have completely missed the point of Mark 16:16 because belief and baptism are both results of our election, calling and regeneration (all actions of our gracious Heavenly Father).

And if God calls us, we cannot resist - any other belief makes God out to be impotent or ineffectual. God does not call and wait to see how man will respond. God only calls those whom he has elected and WILL finish a work that he has begun:

Phil 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

If you take New Testament teaching as a whole, belief, repentance, confession, and baptism are all necessary for salvation. My point in Mark 16:16 is that baptism is placed before salvation by Jesus Christ. That doesn't exclude obedience to the other commands.

There are Scriptures that explicitly mention belief, but not repentance, confession, and baptism. Does that mean belief is all that is necessary? No. There are those that explicitly mention confession, but not belief, repentance, and baptism. Does that mean that confession is all that is necessary? No. There are those that explicitly mention repentance, but not belief, confession, and baptism. Does that mean that repentance is all that is necessary? No.

Christ places belief and baptism before salvation. The fact that disbelief is all that is necessary for not being saved is a matter of common sense. If someone doesn't believe, they have no reason to repent of their sins, confess Christ, or be baptized into His death.

The bottom line is this: Are the words of Christ enough for you to believe something? If so, then why do you not believe that baptism is before salvation, when Christ made that statement Himself?

jkl: "The bottom line is this: Are the words of Christ enough for you to believe something? If so, then why do you not believe that baptism is before salvation, when Christ made that statement Himself?"

Christ also said:

John 3:
"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

John 6:65
"Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

John 10:27-29
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand."

None of the actions above can be carried out by a man, all are things that God does for an individual (rebirth, granted to him by My Father, who has given them to Me).

We must be careful to heed all the words of Christ, not just those that argue your point. As a matter of fact, you should heed the Bible in its entirety. You continue to overlook the means of salvation for all the Old Testament saints (none where baptized). Salvation is a gift - an unmerited gift. Belief, repentance, confession, and baptism are all things we must do - but all are done out of obedience to a God who does a great work in us first.

Also, I'm still waiting for the scripture that says those who believe and are not baptized are condemned...

"Also, I'm still waiting for the scripture that says those who believe and are not baptized are condemned..."

That verse is not needed, since the Bible clearly teaches that if you don't believe, you are already condemned(John 3:18,Mark 16:16). Since you agree that taking Scripture as a whole is imporant, why do you want to contradict a direct statement of Christ?

The scriptures you listed do not contradict Mark 16:16, they complement that Scripture. In John 3, being "born again" is equated to being "born of water and of the Spirit". The water here is referring to baptism. As for John 6, I agree that salvation has been granted by God. However, that does not exclude obedience. In John 10, are you overlooking the phrase "and they follow me"? Jesus clearly lists obedience as required for gaining eternal life.

Your pretty good at giving suggestions: Your previous post had one and now this one too:

I suggest that you...

I would suggest that, since you are unable to even tell us what the doctrine of "Sola Fide" is, you

Instead of coming across as arogant and preachy, if you know it so well then put it in your own words for discussion. Any "true" Protestant would know that.

Any "true" Protestant would attempt to help others learn...

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