Posted on 04/01/2005 7:41:06 AM PST by Frumanchu
However, we are commanded to believe(Romans 10:17), repent of our sins(Acts 2:38), confess that Jesus Christ is the Son of God(Romans 10:9-10), and be baptized for the remission of our sins(Mark 16:16,Acts 2:38,Romans 6:4). We are also expected to continue to "walk in the light" (1 John 1:7).
So, operating for a moment under the premise that the "works of the law" refer specifically to the Commandments handed down to Moses on Mt Sinai, please explain to me how obedience to the commandments of God on one hand are meritorious, yet obedience to the commandments of God on the other hand are not meritorious.
Also, is obedience to the three commandments you referred to sufficient to make the claim of salvation you presented God with above, or does our salvation depend on more? What level of obedience is required in order to be justified before God?
I would suggest all men start out in an unbelieving state-like a light switch in the “Off” position; not in an in-between state that one can “accept” or “refuse” the scripture. I would call your attention to John 8, one scripture among many that supports this position.
“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” John 8:24
Man must believe in our Lord Jesus as the Messiah or they will die in their sins. I think this is consistent with Mark 16:16 which states:
He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.”
It is not a matter of man being in a neutral position deciding to believe or disbelieve. Man already disbelieves. It is a matter that one must believe.
As for the following: ”By obeying the Lord and doing as we have been taught, we are not meriting salvation, we are just meeting the conditions for receipt of that wonderful gift.” I’m sure we both would agree that any works we have before the Lord is as filthy rags. Our salvation is assured only through the works of Christ and it is our duty to follow His example through His power and strength by submitting to the Holy Spirit.
The reason the works of the Law are not sufficient is because you would have to keep them perfectly and continuously, which is impossible. Christ took care of the sacrifice, once and for all, and now we need to simply submit ourselves to His will and obey what he has commanded to enter into a relationship with Him.
The Bible teaches that if you believe, repent of your sins,confess Christ, and are baptized for the remission of your sins, you will be saved. After that, you must continue to follow God, and if you stumble, and you will, you can gain forgiveness for those sins by repenting and asking God to forgive you. I gave you the verses, so you are more than welcome to look them up yourself.
Do you view repentance as something that you do, or that Christ does? Do you view confession as something that you do, or something that Christ does?
I understand, and it is a valid question. I was simply attempting to illustrate a crucial point as it relates to the original article. We are declared just before God on the basis of Christ's righteousness, not our own. We are declared just before God at the moment of faith, and the lifelong process of our sanctification begins. Our sanctification is not immediate, nor is it fully realized in this life. We will continue to struggle against the flesh, and there is no doubt that we will fail at times to endure these temptations.
Operating under the hypothetical you proposed, we are talking about one incident in his life in which none of us knows the motives of his heart. It could be that Michael Schiavo had malicious intent in the death of his wife. It could be that he simply wished to honor the stated wishes of his wife (assuming he was telling the truth in that regard). If could be that he simply felt it was an act of compassion and that he wished for his wife to be released from this world to be with God. (please understand I am not attempting to support or declare anything about the situation...only using it to illustrate a point)
What we are left with is saying that even though Michael Schiavo is a Christian, declared just before God based on the righteousness of Christ, that he can by this one act (the motives of which none of us knows with 100% certainty) unjustify himself before God based on an unrighteous act that was already expiated and atoned for two thousand years ago on the Cross.
I submit that this is what the author of Hebrews referred to hypothetically in the beginning of Hebrews 6. Christ has forever perfected those who are being sanctified. To say that one sin of one man could bring death again even after that sin has already been atoned for is indeed to put Christ anew to open shame.
Faith without works is dead. Works of righteousness are the fruits of true saving faith in Christ. They add nothing to the righteousness by which we are justified. They are born of faith in, love for, and a desire to please, the God who saved us. While we remain in this corrupt flesh, we unfortunately will never fully or perfectly express those things in the works we do.
Has He not also atoned for any failure to obey what He has commanded?
The Bible teaches that if you believe, repent of your sins,confess Christ, and are baptized for the remission of your sins, you will be saved. After that, you must continue to follow God, and if you stumble, and you will, you can gain forgiveness for those sins by repenting and asking God to forgive you. I gave you the verses, so you are more than welcome to look them up yourself.
You've no doubt heard this example before, but what if I as a believer were to stumble and commit a sin and then subsequently die before having repented and asked for forgiveness?
"God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will." - 2 Tim 2:25-26
Faith is what man exercises, as Calvin points out in his commentaries in Eph 2:8-9. Consequently what you would classify as “repentance” and “confession” I believe is asking for forgiveness from God for our sinfulness. This is man’s responsibility. But man cannot come to the point of asking for forgiveness until he believes now can he?
jkl: "The Bible teaches that if you believe, repent of your sins,confess Christ, and are baptized for the remission of your sins, you will be saved. After that, you must continue to follow God, and if you stumble, and you will, you can gain forgiveness for those sins by repenting and asking God to forgive you."
Are you saying that only the sins which you REQUEST forgiveness are forgiven?? What if you do not recognize some of your actions to be sin (which I would claim happens in your life daily)? God does not judge man on man's view of sin, God judges man on God's view of sin. No one can repent perfectly nor can anyone ask forgiveness for all their sins?
Are you saying in your case that some "christian" can go through life and each morning pray "God, fogive all my sins"? And after this, all is well? Or does man need to specify every particular sin to be sure none are left uncovered?
I would say you have started down a very slippery slope...
God is the one who calls. God is the one who justifies. God is the one who forgives sin. This is the only way it can be done sufficiently. Obediance from those He calls is merely a response, not a cause of justification. Obediance is evidence of our calling - (Luke 6:44 For every tree is known by its own fruit).
Eph 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6
And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Rom 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 9:11
(For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:16
So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Jesus put it very simply
Jhn 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
The unregenerate man has no desire to " simply submit". it is an act of God that the saved have desired to submit.
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Ephesians 2:8-10.
That is not faith alone. This section also doesn't teach repentance? Does that mean that repentance isn't necessary? This section also doesn't teach confession? Does that mean that confession isn't necessary?
Faith is important, but it is more than just a belief. It is an obedient faith that saves us.
Repentance is more than asking God for forgiveness. It is a turning away from your sinful life and living for God. Confession isn't asking for forgiveness, it is confessing Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
I never said that we can ask for forgiveness before belief. Belief comes first, no doubt about it. After that come repentance, confession, and baptism.
"He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God." John 8:45
Seems pretty straight forward.
While my answer won't be as eloquently stated as Fru's, I'd like to add that the regenerate man, the true believer, will be less apt to consiously sin in that manner.
Sin is constantly trying to tell us, "It's ok - just give in - you'll get away with it", etc - the unsaved doesn't have the provision to escape that temptation as well as a believer would (1 Corintians 10:13).
When I was saved - my eyes were open. Things taht never bothered me now greatly bothered me. Behaviors I had once condoned, I now saw as terrible, blasphemous sins. While the struggle against sin is ever-present, the regenerate man is aware of it, aware of the repercussions, and actively seeks to "starve" that old self into submission.
The last Fruit of the Spirit is "self control" - I submit that Paul listed it last because all the other fruit will grow from being able to control ones self in the midst of temptation.
The idea of sinning "carte blanch" and then simply repenting would never enter into the minds of someone who has been effectually called into the Lord's service and is sealed by the Holy Spirit.
jkl, I think you are confusing the accidens with the essence. Your last statement reflects this.
Luther is know for saying that we are saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone. There is an important difference between saying that faith alone justifies (and such faith will necessarily produce repentance/confession/works), and saying that faith combined with repentance/confession/works justifies (making them part of the judicial basis for justification).
You cited a couple times the issue of the demons who believe yet are clearly not saved. You must recognize that there is more than just mere intellectual assent involved in the faith that saves.
Saving faith is composed of three dynamic elements:
Notitia (knowledge) – this refers to the content of our faith. The content must be correct for the faith to be valid. I can believe strongly and sincerely in Santa Claus, but the faith is ultimately false because the object of the faith is not true. True Christian faith does not require that we have exhaustive knowledge of the full content of the Gospel, but it does require that we have knowledge of the true basic fundamentals.
Assensus (theoretical assent) – this refers to intellectual assent to the truth of the notitia. It is the difference between saying “history says that Neil Armstrong landed on the moon” and “I believe Neil Armstrong landed on the moon.” Assensus and notitia alone are NOT sufficient for saving faith (James 2:19). The demons know that Jesus is the Son of God and acknowledge the truth of that fact.
Fiducia (trust or practical assent) – this moves beyond possession of the facts and agreement with one’s “head” to a practical trust in one’s “heart.” It is a combination of love with trust, inclination and agreement.
Consider the following example:
During the late 19th century a French tightrope walker made quite a stir by repeatedly crossing over Niagara Falls on rope stretched between the two banks of the river. Reportedly, he once singled out a member of the audience before one of these "trips" and asked him several questions along the following lines:
"Sir", he asked, " do you believe I can walk over the falls on this little rope?"This man knew he had walked across the tightrope before (notitia) and believed he could do it again with the wheelbarrow (assensus), but stopped short of putting his trust in that theoretical assent (fiducia)."Sure", answered the man, "I've seen you do it before."
"And do you also believe that I could push this wheelbarrow across?"
"Yes, I do."
"And do you also believe that I could do it with a man sitting in the wheelbarrow?"
"Yeah, I'm positive you could."
"Then, kind sir, would you mind assisting me by getting into the wheelbarrow?"
"Not on your life!", answered the man.
jkl, a major component of our salvation is our ability to stand justified before a righteous and holy God. We cannot do this on our own. Only by being cloaked int the righteousness of Christ and having our sins atoned for by His blood can we stand before Him. The instrumental means by which this is accomplished is faith. Nothing else. But genuine faith in the heart of a believer will necessarily produce repentance, confession and works of righteousness. The absence of these things is a clear indication that their profession is not justified by their actions (James 2:18,26), as is their failure to persevere in their professed faith (1 John 2:19).
Please understand I am not attempting to minimize the importance of repentance, confession and works in the life of the believer. I am merely disagreeing with the notion that they are in any way involved directly in the judicial declaration of justification of the believer.
Thank you for your response. Yes, I would agree with these steps and based upon the sermons on faith and grace I think Calvin would also. I would not go so far as to say you must be baptized to be saved. However, I would question someone's sincerity who did not want to be baptized.
Mark 16:16
Acts 2:38
Acts 22:16
1 Peter 3:21
In each of these passages, and many others, baptism is placed before salvation. Do you place repentance and confession before salvation?
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