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To: newgeezer
Do you agree? Or, do you still hold to your claim that Judas must have been a true believer in order to be appointed to the twelve?

Yes, going back to the main question:

Hindsight is 20/20. You argue that Judas couldn't possibly have been a believer because he wasn't saved. Reason suggests the contrary. But what evidence do you have that Judas never professed a belief in Christ at any point in his life? What evidence do we have the you, yourself, may not turn away from God before you die and suffer the same fate? You are presupposing that being a believer is all that is necessary for salvation, and then reconstructing the history of Judas to fit this belief system and then in the face of any sort of logical argumentation that suggests otherwise, you merely revert to a response equivelant to: with God, anything is possible.

That's not much of an argument.

Apostleship differed greatly from discipleship. They are two entirely different types of followers and one could not just "tag along" and be an Apostle of Christ. These men were challenged and called to live a life devoted to Him and the Lord and they were entrusted with a great mission. To say that Jesus picked someone for this position simply because He needed someone to betray Him defies reason and is stretching it, at best (as well as creates many problems with arguments for free-will).

My main point is that just because a person proclaims that Jesus is their personal Lord and Savior doesn't mean they'll make it to heaven. We must work out our salvation with fear and trembling and not become complacent, lest we end up like Judas.

Regarding Romans 9, I cannot find in that chapter anything stating that God creates certain men that He destines for Hell from the beginning, or as part of His "plan."
168 posted on 03/23/2005 11:10:17 AM PST by mike182d ("Let fly the white flag of war." - Zapp Brannigan)
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To: mike182d
You argue that Judas couldn't possibly have been a believer because he wasn't saved. Reason suggests the contrary.

Hah. Your "reason" suggests the contrary to you, but only because you have bought into the idea of there being a whole system of qualifications and litmus tests for Judas before Jesus would be justified in making him one of the twelve.

(No surprise there! ;-)

174 posted on 03/23/2005 11:39:58 AM PST by newgeezer (Just my opinion, of course. Your mileage may vary.)
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