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To: Phsstpok
I don't see anything that says Clement, or his successors, were legitimately elected
The conclave met in Perugia, where Benedict died, and was torn by factions. After an interval of nearly eleven months, the French party won a complete triumph by the choice of Bertrand de Got, archbishop of Bordeaux, who took the name of Clement V.

226 posted on 01/23/2005 6:21:05 PM PST by gbcdoj ("The Pope orders, the cardinals do not obey, and the people do as they please" - Benedict XIV)
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To: gbcdoj
The conclave met in Perugia, where Benedict died, and was torn by factions. After an interval of nearly eleven months, the French party won a complete triumph by the choice of Bertrand de Got, archbishop of Bordeaux, who took the name of Clement V.

Read the rest of the piece, about the makeup of the college, of the motives and actions of the participants and of the Popes and hierarchy that they spawned.

That doesn't pass the smell test.

Yep, he was elected. Where does it say that the election was legitimate? Where is one statement made, other than the fact that he won the "vote," confer legitimacy on his election? Everything in the article screams about the corruption of the entire hierarchy of the church during this process, including the complete corruption of the process by which the pope was elected. The site explicitely states that Clement V was Philips chosen pope. Nowhere does it say that he was God's.

the French party won a complete triumph

That doesn't sound like a divine endorsement to me.

That's the whole problem. Blind obedience to corruption when it claims the mantle of The Church. That is the way Satan will come to you. You must look at the actions, motives and outcome and decide accordingly, not base your judgement on the assertion of Earthly authority.

There is only one Authority, none other.

The earlier citation of Jeneut (sp?) arguing that the "acceptance by the universal church" was all the legitimacy needed to "prove" an election was valid could very well point to the divisions that grew into the Protestant Reformation, the final call by the universal church for the corrupt institutions to repent and turn away from the path of deception and evil.

Perhaps the universal church spoke in the Gods' own time.

227 posted on 01/23/2005 6:34:25 PM PST by Phsstpok ("When you don't know where you are, but you don't care, you're not lost, you're exploring.")
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