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To: Conservative til I die
This reasoning makes absolutely no sense. You're saying that the lineage was broken because this specific pope ceased living. Um, nearly every other pope has succeeded his predecessor because the predecessor died.

Either that, or your saying that the Pope not being in Rome has something to do with it. So does that mean that when Pope John Paul travels outside of Rome he is no longer pope?

OK, you are either completely ignorant of history and the events I was talking about or you are mearly trying to provoke a response (as a troll would). In either case you are not providing anything really worth responding to.

However, I will assume that you simply don't know your history and give this one try.

Look up the incidents (Avignon Captivity) and players involved (King Philip, Guillaume de Nogart, Popes such as Boniface VIII and Clement V, the Cathars, etc.) and you will see that I am not talking about the death of a Pope but the usurpation of the Papacy, most likely by the Cathars (Gnostics, those who deny the divinity and resurrection of Christ - you know, the folks who are the "good guys" in the Da Vinci Code).

The fact that the Papacy, even once "restored" to Rome and supposedly no longer under the heal of the French Monarchy has yet to condemn the kidnapping and death of one pope, the assassination of another and the manipulation of the College Of Cardinals by a temporal King to put a puppet into the Papacy is the proof to me that the Throne of Peter was irreovcably damaged in the decades around 1300.

151 posted on 01/22/2005 11:28:00 AM PST by Phsstpok ("When you don't know where you are, but you don't care, you're not lost, you're exploring.")
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To: Phsstpok
Your argument makes no sense. The right of electing the Pope is possessed by the Roman Church or the universal Church - it is not possible to destroy this power in the Catholic Church. Journet says:
(3) In whom does the power to elect the Pope reside? If the Pope is not concerned to designate his successor directly, it belongs to him, on the other hand, to determine or modify the conditions of a valid election: "The Pope" says Cajetan, "can settle who the electors shall be, and change and limit in this way the mode of election to the point of invalidating anything done outside these arrangements" (De Comparatione Auctoritatis Papae et Concilii, cap. xiii, no. 201). Thus, resuming a usage introduced by Julius II, Pius IX decreed that if a Pope should chance to die during the sitting of an Oecumenical Council, the election of his successor would be made not by the Council, which would be at once interrupted ipso jure, but by the College of Cardinals alone (Acta et Decreta Sacrosancti Oecumenici Concilii Vaticani, Rome 1872, p. 104 et seq. ). This same provision is recalled in the constitution Vacante Sede Apostolica, of Pius X, 25th Dec. 1904.

In a case where the settled conditions of validity have become inapplicable, the task of determining new ones falls to the Church by devolution, this last word being taken, as Cajetan notes (Apologia, cap. xiii, no. 745) not in the strict sense (devolution is strictly to the higher authority in case of default in the lower) but in the wide sense, signifying all transmission even to an inferior.

It was in the course of the disputes on the respective authorities of Pope and Council that the question of the power to elect a Pope came up in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries. On this point Cajetan's thought is as follows.

He explains first that the power to elect the Pope resides in his predecessors eminently, regularly and principally. Eminently, as the "forms" of lower beings are in the angels, who, however, are incapable in themselves of exercising the activities of bodies (Apologia, cap. xiii, no. 736). Regularly, that is to say as an ordinary right, unlike the Church in her widowhood, unable to determine a new mode of election save "in casu", unless forced by sheer necessity. Principally, unlike the widowed Church, in whom this power resides only secondarily (no. 737). During a vacancy of the Apostolic See, neither the Church nor the Council can contravene the provisions already laid down to determine the valid mode of election (De Comparata, cap. xiii, no. 202). However, in case of permission (for example if the Pope has provided nothing against it), or in case of ambiguity (for example, if it is unknown who the true Cardinals are or who the true Pope is, as was the case at the time of the Great Schism), the power "of applying the Papacy to such and such a person" devolves on the universal Church, the Church of God (ibid., no. 204).

Cajetan affirms next that the power to elect the Pope resides formally—that is to say in the Aristotelian sense, as apt to proceed directly to the act of electing—in the Roman Church, including in that Church the cardinal bishops who, in a way, are suffragans of the Bishop of Rome. That is why, according to the canonical rule provided, the right to elect the Pope belongs in fact to the cardinals alone (Apologia, cap. xiii, no. 742). That again is why, when the provisions of the Canon Law cannot be fulfilled, the right to elect will belong to certain members of the Church of Rome. In default of the Roman clergy the right will belong to the Church universal, of which the Pope is to be Bishop (ibid., nos. 741 and 746).


157 posted on 01/22/2005 12:12:28 PM PST by gbcdoj ("The Pope orders, the cardinals do not obey, and the people do as they please" - Benedict XIV)
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