Replies

"the Nicene Creed was amplified at the Council of Constantinople (381) into its present form, or at least that is what the Fathers at the Council of Chalcedon in 451 say."

That is true. And included in that amplification was adding everything that came after "We believe in the Holy Spirit." That is simply a matter of historic fact.

"I can't imagine where you got the idea that there were fewer bishops in the East in 381 than in the barbarian West."

I never said that. I said there were no "Apostolic" churches in the East in the 4th Century. That also is a matter of historic fact. Again, at that time "Apostolic churches" were considered those specific churches founded by a specific apostle. That too, is a matter of historic fact. The term "Apostolic" didn't take on a more universal meaning until late in the 4th and early 5th Centuries. The following is from The Catholic Encyclopedia, "At the time of the Christological controversies in the fourth and fifth centuries some of these Apostolic Churches rejected the orthodox faith. Thus it happened that the title "Apostolic Churches" was no longer used in apologetic treatises, to denote the particular Churches founded by the Apostles."

I appreciate the information on Ignatius, and I will study that more closely later. But I reject your concluding comment, "Thus, without bishops in the Apostolic succession, there simply is no Church." That is clearly counter to the words of Christ. But again, I will try to comment more later.

In all honesty, I don't care what the Catholic encyclopedia says, but here I don't think it is saying anything different than what I have said except to this extent. The Churches the encyclopedia is referring to are those ancient Churches such as Antioch which fell into what the orthodox Church believed was heresy and thus were at a minimum schismatics. It does not mean that the bishops of those Churches were not in the Apostolic Succession. What you have read is a particularly Roman view of the effect of heresy or schism, one not shared by all Romans either. It is not what the Orthodox Church teaches. If it did, we would not recognize the Apostolic Succession of any Roman hierarch up to and including the Pope, nor would Rome recognize ours. The Churches of Jerusalem (founded by St. James), of Constantinople (founded by St. Andrew), Rome and Antioch (founded by St. Peter) and Alexandria (founded by St. Mark) all continued in existence through this period and exist to this day.

I'm glad you will read +Ignatius. Try to read all his letters because they are a very, very early witness to the functioning of the Church along the very lines we see in Orthodoxy today. Pay particular attention to his understanding of the Church as a Eucharistic Community. I quoted Fr. John Romanides because on +Ignatius he is a perceptive writer and commentator. Ordinarily I don't particularly like his stuff, but here he is excellent. Give him a read too, if you get the time.