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"I was making the point that many "in the pews" of all traditions tend to seek salvation from the ceremony, instead of in the Person, Jesus Christ."

Please allow me to put forward what may be a somewhat different view of this discussion than you two may be presenting, though I think it may be closer to yours, dsc, than to yours, derheimwill.

Two questions arise. First, what exactly is "salvation" and second, how is that salvation attained. My limited understanding of Protestant theology on salvation is that it is a one time event which occurs at a discrete point during the life of a Christian and there is nothing in particular that one can do to merit this salvation. Once saved by grace, the Christian will necessarily conform his or her behavior to the dictates of Christ and upon death, will be with God in some fashion. In Eastern Christianity, the Orthodox Church and those Eastern Churches in communion with Rome teach that salvation is a process called "theosis", becoming like God. This process is graphically illustrated by an icon called "The Ladder of Divine Ascent". The Ladder is a metaphorical representation of Christ who was prefigured by Jacob's Ladder, among other prefigurings in the OT. Ascending the Ladder (like St. Paul's running the race)involves increasingly dying to the self and focusing the soul on God until the soul becomes completely assumed by God. As the Christian dies to the self, the soul becomes ever more receptive to God's grace and it is that grace that allows progress "up the Ladder". As the icon demonstrates, the minions of the Evil One are constantly at work trying to get us to at least fall back a few rungs, at best to fall off the Ladder and into the Pit. The Father, through His Son and the Holy Spirit and His angels and Saints urge us on and "help" withstand the wiles of the demons. The goal, of course, is to be at one with God. How is this accomplished? The Eastern Fathers taught that we are a liturgical people, indeed the Greek word "liturgia" means "work of the people". We live out our lives and most of us work out our theosis within a Eucharistic Community which is where Christ promises us He will always be. This Eucharistic Community is the Church, made up of the people, the clergy and the hierarchy as we are taught by St. Ignatius of Antioch, who was appointed bishop of Antioch by St. Peter and who sat also at the feet of St. John. The Church has provided for us all that is necessary to strengthen us, through grace, in the sacraments, especially the Eucharist, and in Liturgies and other devotional praxis. In a sense we are in fact "saved" by participation in the "ceremonies" of the Church because these ceremonies, especially the Liturgy, impart to us who pray within the Eucharistic Community the grace we need to progress in theosis. We are also taught by the Fathers that in the Liturgy we enter into the "Life" of heaven and thus gain from our participation a sort of foretaste of the Life to come. Once, a number of years ago, I was down in Greece with my oldest son, who is now grown. One evening we went up to the nuns' monastery on the mountain outside of my mother's family's village to see the nuns. While we were there, a cousin of mine, a nun, asked if we would like to attend Vespers with the sisters. We did. Vespers was prayed in a tiny, freestanding 1000 year old chapel within the walls of the monastery. It was lit only with a few candles and as the nuns chanted, my then 13 year old son whispered to me "Dad, this must be what heaven is like!"

It seems to me that any discussion of the various beliefs which Christian people hold must start with a definition of what we mean by salvation since, of course, that is why Christ came and established His Church. The praxis to attain that salvation is what thereafter defines the very real differences between Protestantism and the teachings of the Churches within the Apostolic Succession.

Make any sense to either of you? Now I'm off to church for a while. By the way, Happy New Year!

Yes, that's pretty much the way I see it.

"It seems to me that any discussion of the various beliefs which Christian people hold must start with a definition of what we mean by salvation since, of course, that is why Christ came and established His Church."

I don't know if there is a moment in this life when one is "saved" in a permanent sense, because there is always the danger of falling into sin and separating yourself from Our Lord.

It seems to me that the goal is to hear Our Lord say, "Yes, this is one of mine." I'm totally unsure what level of effort is sufficient to meet that goal.

That sounds, I know, as though I'm saying we are saved through our own efforts, but that's not what I mean.

Clearly, you can't just say "Lord, Lord" and then go back to your old sinful ways. I think you have to put something into the process -- Ideo firmiter propono de cetero me non peccaturum, peccandique occasiones proximas fugiturm, and all that. Some people call it "cooperating with Grace," but to me it feels more like strenuous effort than cooperation.

Of course, without Grace all our efforts would be futile, but I don't think you can just say, "I'm saved," and stop trying to conform yourself to God's will. As you wrote, it's a continuing process of improvement, "adiuvante gratia tua."

And as I said earlier, I have no idea how much progress one needs to make or how much effort one needs to expend to avoid the torments of Hell.

- I call progress in the life of a believer "sanctification."
- I see "salvation" as the end goal - the entry into heaven - though this may be a distinction without a difference since "whosoever calls (present continuous) upon the Name of the Lord shall be (future) saved."
- "Point of salvation" is taken to an extreme among many Protestants. However, there comes a point of internalization, when one realizes, aha!, God has specific intentions concerning my life and I have an individual call to respond from the heart.
- "Justification" is what Jesus does when he grants us "the right to be called the Children of God." (not very precise but, I figured I'd include it.)
- Where Protestants disagree with the other branches (not the only place) is in the degree to which the Church, the Saints, etc. can act vicariously on behalf of the individual believer. Catholics and Orthodox disagree about the way in which the Father, the Son, the Liturgy, etc. interact, as well. I personally find much of this to be an argument about words. For example, I don't follow the details of Rome's transsubstantiation, and Protestants disagree on this one as well. But, after having faithfully participated in the Eucharist, we all may say of ourselves "I have partaken of the body of Christ." (I don't want to get off on this in particular. Point is, God does what He does whether we know the right way to describe it or not.)

Your thoughts?