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To: Credo_in_unam_Deum
Good, Catholic posts. Falls under "Blessed be the peacemakers..."

1. ...But I think that you would agree that any post made for the specific purpose of inciting anger in another person is a sin, no?

True, and somebody better draw that heavy Confession curtain pretty doggone quick, 'cause there's gonna be a mad rush.

Don't know if you'd know or not, but is it a sin to hope for the excommunication of a person or people? And as a Catholic, is it a sin to tell somebody to drop dead? Also, profanity is a venial sin, right?

80 posted on 11/24/2004 12:31:46 PM PST by AlbionGirl (+Hoc Est Enim Corpus Meum+)
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To: AlbionGirl
Don't know if you'd know or not, but is it a sin to hope for the excommunication of a person or people?

I would reference the following:

1. Ezechiel 18:32 and 33:11 - For I desire not the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God, return ye and live...Say to them: As I live, saith the Lord God, I desire not the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way, and live. Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways: and why will you die, O house of Israel?

2. Wisdom 1:13 - For God made not death, neither hath he pleasure in the destruction of the living.

3. 1 Timothy 2:1-4 - I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth

4. And, of course, the old favorite: Matthew 5:44 - But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust.

Those are the ones that I can think of off of the top of my head, that lead me to the conclusion that we are obligated to desire the salvation of all men in particular, even though we know that in general many will be lost and few will be saved. So I would say that if you wanted someone to be excommunicated because you didn't like being in the same Church as him, or you thought he deserved damnation, then I don't see how that would be lawful.

Yet I would also refer to the following:

1. Psalms 17: 36 - ...thy discipline hath corrected me unto the end: and thy discipline, the same shall teach me.

2. Wisdom 12:1-2 - O how good and sweet is thy spirit, O Lord, in all things! And therefore though chastisest them that err, by little and little: and admonishest them , and speakest to them, concerning the things wherein they offend: that leaving their wickedness, they may believe in thee, O Lord

3. Ecclesiasticus 18:13 - He hath mercy, and teacheth, and correcteth, as a shepherd doth his flock.

4. Proverbs 29:15 - The rod and reproof give wisdom.

5. 1 Timothy 5:20 - Them that sin reprove before all: that the rest also may have fear.

From those I would conclude that there are two times when we can desire someone's excommunication: first, if our end in so desiring is that by their punishment they might be made aware of their sin and repent; second, if our end be so that others will be instructed and that scandal will be prevented from spreading.

So, for example, I earnestly desire the excommunication of John Kerry. He really seems to be under the impression that it is possible to be a good Catholic and rabidly pro-abortion at the same time. He also gives many Catholics the same impression. After all, if he is a "Catholic in good standing", why can't I be pro-choice, too, or even have an abortion (well *I* couldn't, anatomically speaking, but you get the idea)?

So while I cannot say with absolute certainty that if John Kerry died today, he would be roasting in hell, objectively his participation in that sin is certainly sufficient to qualify as "a grave matter", and therefore his chances of salvation would be astronomically increased if he should repent of his involvement with the culture of death. But he will probably never do so when from all sides his position is respected as one which Catholics can hold in good conscience.

So I am lead to believe that his excommunication would be a good ordained to the greater salvation of souls, principally his own. Therefore I desire it for the sake of the love which Christ commands me to have for him.

And as a Catholic, is it a sin to tell somebody to drop dead?

Matthew 5:22 - But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

I would have to say yes.

Also, profanity is a venial sin, right?

I must admit I do not know.

82 posted on 11/24/2004 10:02:54 PM PST by Credo_in_unum_deum (Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.)
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To: AlbionGirl
Re: "And as a Catholic, is it a sin to tell somebody to drop dead? Also, profanity is a venial sin, right?"

Well to answer that question we need to know if you prefer the old catechism or the new?
:-)
88 posted on 11/25/2004 8:35:38 AM PST by Mark in the Old South (Note to GOP "Deliver or perish" Re: Specter I guess the GOP "chooses" to perish)
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