[Grey Ghost II]

I didn't know the apostles and martyrs of the early Church celebrated the Tridentine Mass?

Did the apostles and martyrs "celebrate" (as you like to say) gay masses, clown masses, hockey masses, Halloween masses and cookie masses?

[Blessed Charlemagne]

I am damn tired of the bullshit polemics of this argument. Can we come up with nothing better? Lest we direct our words (and our fight) to that which actually matters, we are doomed to fail, in every respect. Oh sure (spare me the b.s. neo-cons) the Church can never fail. However, the Church can cease to exist in any given place, or even in most places. If the various sides cannot sit down and hash this out INTELLIGENTLY then we shall fail the Church, and the Church will (humanly speaking) suffer. There is something very wrong on the Novus Ordo side. It is the refusal to acknowledge or address the fact that so much "stuff" forced on the Church in the last forty or fifty years is in fact novelty and does violate proven methods of evangelization, Church Tradition, and true organic development of doctrine and liturgy. On the other hand, traditionalists (myself included) are so damn trigger happy in accusing everyone who goes to any Mass approved by the Holy See or the local ordinary, or anyone who even sees a rapprochement with Rome as desirous of closet modernism that we discredit ourselves because our arguments are all to often (as is exemplified on Free Republic) based on conjecture, opinion, or personal preference instead of sound theological reasoning (which is ample and a hell of a lot more conclusive).

I'm sick and tired of both sides. If you can't say anything intelligent, shut up. Go to Mass. Pray. But please shut up.

[sinkspur]

Did the apostles and martyrs "celebrate" (as you like to say) gay masses, clown masses, hockey masses, Halloween masses and cookie masses?

Actually, they celebrated a "Mass" very similar to the Novus Ordo. They also took the Eucharist home with them for consumption during the week.