Once Saved, Always Saved (Orthodox viewpoint)

Conciliar Press ^ | Thursday, 04 November 2004 | Father Michael Gillis

[telder1]

"Ok. I'm pretty much ok with the thesis of your comments, and I agree with them. I'm trying to figure out how to reach these folks in an effective manner... " But that's the thing. You can't simply throw a leg over and ride their incredulity/heart in the guise of various rhetorical widgets. To do that is sin. God has to speak through you as spirit and life and birth real literal new creations in Jesus Christ. They will never 'agree' as a point of mere human philosophy because to do so invalidates the very speech (the only speech) they have. They don't have the being with which to understand God's Word prior to hearing God's Word. That's the whole thing. It is new birth on the hearing--or nothing. The only time one understands there is no free will is AFTER actual new birth and hearing the voice of God. 1 Corinthians 4:15 For if ye should have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet not many fathers; for in Christ Jesus *I* have begotten you through the glad tidings. Mat 10:20 For *ye* are not the speakers, but the Spirit of your Father which speaks in you. Pray and ask God to speak through you His Word, knowing that the very prayer is Him Speaking to Himself through you. Col 4:2 Persevere in prayer, watching in it with thanksgiving; Col 4:3 praying at the same time for us also, that God may open to us a door of the word to speak the mystery of Christ, on account of which also I am bound, Col 4:4 to the end that I may make it manifest as I ought to speak. Why was God through Paul asking for a door to be opened if Paul had 'freedom of speech' and 'a duty to do the gospel'? Col 1:3 We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ continually when praying for you, Col 1:4 having heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and the love which ye have towards all the saints, Col 1:5 on account of the hope which is laid up for you in the heavens; of which ye heard before in the word of the truth of the glad tidings, Col 1:6 which are come to you, as they are in all the world, and are bearing fruit and growing, even as also among you, from the day ye heard them and knew indeed the grace of God, in truth: Col 1:7 even as ye learned from Epaphras our beloved fellow-bondman, who is a faithful minister of Christ for you, Col 1:8 who has also manifested to us your love in the Spirit. In the Name of Jesus Christ, amen

[monkfan]

I could be mistaken, but what I learned was that this was the attitude when WE should take upon the return to rightness once someone submits themselves to authority.

The Orthodox Study Bible (NKJV) has some footnotes on this parable that may be of interest to you:

15:11-32 This parable, perhaps the most magnificent of all parables, occurs only in Luke and illustrates God's unconditional love and forgiveness for the repentant sinner.

15:12 The father fulfills the request of the son out of a profound respect for his freedom, and he lets him go for the same reason. God neither holds nor pulls anyone by force.

15:15 Consenting to feed swine, unclean and despised animals to Jews, is an act of utter desperation.

15:17 Extreme need brings the prodigal son to his senses, but what draws him homeward is probably his father's love.

15:20 The father's tender actions show he never ceased looking for the return of his son, just as God always longs for the return of every sinner to His forgiving embrace. In Jewish culture, it was considered undignified for an older man to run, but that did not stop this father.

15:22-24 The father does not censure the contrite son, but celebrates his homecoming as one who came alive from the dead. The symbolic significance of the robe is righteousness (Is. 61:10), the ring (a signet ring) is family identity (Hag. 2:23), and sandals refer to walking according to the gospel (Eph. 6:15).

15:25-32 The father also has to deal with the resentful older son (v. 25) and does so with the same gentle kindness shown to the younger. By contrast, this son shows a pharisaic attitude of self-righteousness and contempt for his brother, much like a Church member who does not wish to be bothered with visitors or new converts.

[rdb3]

That tells me that Jesus doesn't cast us out; we cast ourselves out by turning our backs on His grace. Just as Christ stands at the door and knocks, but we must open the door and let him into our lives, we can also close the door later on, after effectively ushering the Lord out of our lives.

Not quite. To wit:

²⁷ My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
²⁸ And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
²⁹ My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

-- John 10:28, 29 Note: Is man large enough to "pluck" himself out of the Father's hand?

¹³In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
¹⁴Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

-- Ephesians 1:13,14

¹⁹ What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
²⁰ For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

-- I Corinthians 6:19, 20 Note: That "price" is the Blood of the Lamb. Nothing He does is in vain.

⁶Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

--Philippians 1:6 Note: Who is performing this work, and when does it say that He will quit?

[Choose Ye This Day]

So, is Judas in heaven? The Lord chose him, taught him, and Judas followed the Lord, believed in the word, and was bought with the same price as I.

Judas turned his back on God's grace.

[stripes1776]

Orthodox Christians don't speaking about getting or being saved. As the author of the article states, salvation is a process, a journey to God. The aim is communion and union with God. The goal of this process is called theosis or deification or divinization in which one participates in the glorification of Christ. Then the glory of God the Father in the face of the Son through the Holy Spirit lives in ones heart.

What protestants call 'being saved' is from an Orthodox perspective one of the major events in that journey to God. But the mark it leaves on the soul is not indelible. It is still possible to get lost on that journey and even to go in the opposite direction by rejecting God's love.

Those who have undergone the journey in this life to the point of theosis are called Saints and that is why the Church honors them. However, the journey to God is never over. But even those who reach theosis participate in an eternal process.

The question from an Orthodox perspective might be, "Can one who has undergone theosis ever loose this state?" Since the Saints continue to be honored, I would say probably not.

[gobucks]

"What protestants call 'being saved' is from an Orthodox perspective one of the major events in that journey to God. But the mark it leaves on the soul is not indelible. It is still possible to get lost on that journey and even to go in the opposite direction by rejecting God's love."

Is there a name for that 'major event'? In your experience, have you witnessed orthodox folks who were in the process of theosis, but then outright rejected it? If so, is such a person going to be rejected at the time of judgement?

[rdb3]

So, is Judas in heaven? The Lord chose him, taught him, and Judas followed the Lord, believed in the word, and was bought with the same price as I.

No, Judas is not in heaven. Judas was chosen for a specific purpose, just as the pharoah was chosen for a specific purpose.

He didn't turn his back on God's grace because he never had it.

Read Romans 9:17.

[stripes1776]

Is there a name for that 'major event'?

I am not aware of any specific name. From an Orthodox perspective, there may be many 'major events' on the journey to God. How about a 'sign' pointing in the right direction after being lost for some significant amount of time? Those things that point us in the right direction are very important. But the sign is not the same thing as the destination.

In your experience, have you witnessed orthodox folks who were in the process of theosis, but then outright rejected it?

I have seen people on the journey who turn away, but this may happen to any Christian in any denomination, including myself.

If so, is such a person going to be rejected at the time of judgement?

The understanding of this is somewhat different in Orthodoxy. God loves everyone equally. He loves the saint just as much as he loves the sinner, even a criminal. God rejects no one. It is we who accept or reject his love. So whether we experience God as Light and Glory or the burning fires of hell and outer darkness depends on the state of our heart. That is why it is important to stay on the journey.

[nasachen]

You make a good point. Even better is this. Jesus being God called Judas an apostle. (Luke 6:13-15) That means that either God lied to Judas or that Judas possesses the free will to walk away from God's desire and calling. Since we know that it is impossible for God to lie, we are faced with only one immutable fact. Judas left his calling. Indeed, even the ll understood this when they replaced Judas quoting the Psalm that states, "Let another man take his office." He had an office of ministry that was given by Jesus and therefore He must possess the freewill to leave that office.

Another problem with the belief that man does not possess free will is "love." Love cannot be forced or coerced and therefore is a choice. If love is a choice and we cannot make choices than we are incapable of giving or experiencing love.

[nasachen]

Aaaah! Arn't we all? You are entirely welcome and thank you for your comments as well.

[gobucks]

"That means that either God lied to Judas or that Judas possesses the free will to walk away from God's desire and calling. Since we know that it is impossible for God to lie, we are faced with only one immutable fact. Judas left his calling."

But, 'the devil entered Judas' ....

The immutable fact has an odd, an unique in the New Testament, circumstance. One doesn't get the sense from Luke or John that Judas invited the Devil w/i, and indeed in John, Jesus tells him to do it, the betrayal, quickly.

How does orthodoxy reconcile this? For it seems clear that in turning away, Judas needed an assist.

[nasachen]

You raise valid concerns, however we cannot dismiss my previous arguments based upon those concerns. Jesus called Judas an apostle. Jesus cannot lie, therefore we must conclude that God's will for Judas was to be an apostle else Jesus was just being deceptive. Did Jesus know that he chose someone that would betray Him? Absolutely! God knows Judas. He knows what he will do, but that does not dismiss Judas from his God ordained destiny. If we can find at least one instance where God desired a person to go in direction A and that person went in direction B than we are faced with the fact that the person has the capacity to break God's will and thus has a will of his own.

As far as Satan entering Judas, why is that a problem? I happen to believe that everyone that is conceived has a purpose planned for that life. That purpose is to accomplish the will of God on earth as it is in heaven. Never is sin God's will; always righteousness is God's will. We all fall short of it, but that does not mean that we were not called to it. Judas never came to a belief in Jesus, else he would not be contemplating his betrayal. Just because a person does not come to a belief in Jesus does not negate that person's destiny and call by God.

Next, Jesus telling Judas to do quickly what is obviously a sin, we can rest assured it was not the action that Jesus sanctioned. I could argue then the only thing left is the timing. Jesus was on a time-line that had to be fulfilled. If in His infinite knowledge of events He knows Judas will betray Him, having him do so on time does not violate the holiness of God. God cannot sin, therefore God cannot be complicit in sin.

[nasachen]

You raise valid concerns, however we cannot dismiss my previous arguments based upon those concerns. Jesus called Judas an apostle. Jesus cannot lie, therefore we must conclude that God's will for Judas was to be an apostle else Jesus was just being deceptive. Did Jesus know that he chose someone that would betray Him? Absolutely! God knows Judas. He knows what he will do, but that does not dismiss Judas from his God ordained destiny. If we can find at least one instance where God desired a person to go in direction A and that person went in direction B than we are faced with the fact that the person has the capacity to break God's will and thus has a will of his own.

As far as Satan entering Judas, why is that a problem? I happen to believe that everyone that is conceived has a purpose planned for that life. That purpose is to accomplish the will of God on earth as it is in heaven. Never is sin God's will; always righteousness is God's will. We all fall short of it, but that does not mean that we were not called to it. Judas never came to a belief in Jesus, else he would not be contemplating his betrayal. Just because a person does not come to a belief in Jesus does not negate that person's destiny and call by God.

Next, Jesus telling Judas to do quickly what is obviously a sin, we can rest assured it was not the action that Jesus sanctioned. I could argue then the only thing left is the timing. Jesus was on a time-line that had to be fulfilled. If in His infinite knowledge of events He knows Judas will betray Him, having him do so on time does not violate the holiness of God. God cannot sin, therefore God cannot be complicit in sin.

[telder1]

again, the emotional ploy doesn't work. There is new birth or there is not. Yes or no. God says actual and real new birth is required and further says we are born again by His act of Speech. He also says we obtain a new heart and new spirit as a result of that new birth in fulfillment of the prophecy:

Eze 36:25-27 And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your uncleannesses and from all your idols will I cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and keep mine ordinances, and ye shall do them.

Yet within the non-born again/fallen human heart, it makes perfect sense that anything that limits that heart must "ergo" be evil because limitation is a mere emotional negative to that heart. Yet God makes multiple hearts, with each heart containing its own supposed infallible emotional common sense. That your whole speech/'theology' is derived from your emotional 'common sense' is self evident to all.

God created the heart of a beast and gives it to a man:

Daniel 4:16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

God created the heart of man and gives it to a beast:

Dan 7:3,4 And four great beasts came up from the sea, different one from another. The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till its wings were plucked; and it was lifted up from the earth, and made to stand upon two feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

Not only so, but saying you have the heart of God (and 'therefore' supposedly understand and 'do' God's Love..)in a speech not-God is expressly what the prince of tyre was killed for by God:

Eze 28:1-10 And the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying, Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyre, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Because thy heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a *god, I sit in the seat of God, in the heart of the seas, (and thou art a man, and not *God,) and thou settest thy heart as the heart of God: behold, thou art wiser than Daniel! nothing secret is obscure for thee; by thy wisdom and by thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures; by thy great wisdom thou hast by thy traffic increased thy riches, and thy heart is lifted up because of thy riches. Therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Because thou hast set thy heart as the heart of God, therefore behold, I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations; and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall tarnish thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of those that are slain in the heart of the seas. Wilt thou then say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and not *God, in the hand of him that pierceth thee. Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised, by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it , saith the Lord Jehovah.

That spirit in your flesh is a liar and he is not you. We battle not against flesh and blood and not against fellow real, literal new creations in Jesus Christ. The 'love' argument/lie doesn't fly and never will because it is in non-creating speech and absolutely depends on all who hear it to stay as they are and fight over limited emotional resources with no possible real, literal new creation going on. Yet the Word of God creates what He Speaks. Therefore God is Word, Spirit, Love and Life and Father and Truth. And there is no free will BECAUSE God is His Word.

1 John 4:4-8 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen

[gobucks]

I very much appreciate all the replies you have made. I was reading again that big post you provided.

Mr.Plind, I think, as a protestant, I have figured out what the heart of the disagreement is: what is the difference between 'backsliding' and rejecting the 'faith'? Is backsliding, of any kind, seen in the orthodex view as 'turning away'?

[nasachen]

again, the emotional ploy doesn't work. There is new birth or there is not. Yes or no. God says actual and real new birth is required and further says we are born again by His act of Speech. I was not using an emotional ploy, rather I am appealing to logic and the common sense use of language. The fact that there is a new birth does not determine a lack of free-will. Your use of Ezekiel 36 does not prove that mankind lacks free will. IF God causes us to walk in His statutes then we would walk perfectly according to His moral statutes after He has given a new heart and a new spirit. Your view of "cause" is one of force. If that were the case there would be no person who ever sinned after the born again experience. The "cause" therefore is a result of the previous conditions, that being a new heart and a new spirit. These elements cause one to walk according to God's statutes. The 'love' argument/lie doesn't fly and never will because it is in non-creating speech and absolutely depends on all who hear it to stay as they are and fight over limited emotional resources with no possible real, literal new creation going on. Love cannot be coerced or forced. If it is, then it is no longer love. Knowing that love is a choice does not make one stay where they are. Galatians 5:13 (NASB95) 13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. We are called to freedom. Freedom demands choice. Choice demands the freedom to choose. If free-will does not exist, freedom could not exist. "Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty." You were not forced to reply to my previous post, you made the choice to respond. Even to state that there is no free-will requires the freedom to do so. To say that you were forced by God to respond is to say that your words are the words of God. IF that is so we should add your writings to the bible. What about Judas? Did Jesus lie to Judas when He called him and apostle?

[telder1]

Sin is not God or somehow 'unavoidable' by the real, literal new creation in Jesus Christ. Part of sin is however, being deceived that there is a proper way to do emotion (at all) and that supposed way is most excellently demonstrated by being incredulous concerning every Word of God that is very plainly stated as spirit and life and not mere 'holy information'.

sin is a living creature that is the speech that is not the Word of God and is the spirit of the anti-Christ, not a mere abstract (there are no abstracts) or a mere title of certain acts to be applied variously

no one has sinned since being genuinely born again in Jesus Christ. Doubt that? Evil is commited in the flesh, but the new creation in Jesus Christ is not flesh. God in every way distinguishes the flesh and the acts in it through forgivenness and new birth and from the real, literal new creation in Jesus Christ.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

The flesh is very plainly demarcated from the real, literal new creation in Jesus Christ. Further, God unambiguously says as spirit and life:

1 John 3:6-9 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Because God speaks through me in no way even implies that what He says through me should be 'added' to the Bible. Very plainly it is already there except (possibly) for the names of the real, literal new creations in Jesus Christ birthed and blessed through me. If you don't know that you are yourself a king and priest in Jesus Christ as a real, literal new creation in Jesus Christ, you have been deceived. Mere humility-speak will not stop the persecution God will cause you to walk through because of what He does and says through you. It is of no profit no matter the many through whom it is spoken so that they may merely appear to the non-regenerate as masters of emotion.

Gal 2:11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be condemned: Gal 2:12 for before that certain came from James, he ate with those of the nations; but when they came, he drew back and separated himself, fearing those of the circumcision; Gal 2:13 and the rest of the Jews also played the same dissembling part with him; so that even Barnabas was carried away too by their dissimulation. Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they do not walk straightforwardly, according to the truth of the glad tidings, I said to Peter before all, If *thou*, being a Jew, livest as the nations and not as the Jews, how dost thou compel the nations to Judaize?

In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen

[Cvengr]

Yea,..I follow the spirit regeneration perspective of being born again, ...but that resurrection thing tends to shed some doubt on the issue that the body isn't good through Christ as well. IMHO, it's more than spiritual,..man is body, soul and spirit.

[rwfromkansas]

Well, I do NOT view salvation as a process..when you are saved that day you come to the Lord, you are saved.

However, ***santification*** is a process, and so change all the references to salvation to sanctification, and I would agree.

[rwfromkansas]

Why did you choose that site as your tagline?